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Old 02-16-2014, 08:21 AM   #21
Brad Allen Jones
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Re: Need advice on dropping excess muscle mass

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First, yes, you are misreading.

Second, it sounds like you've never worn my shoes. Your experience obviously does not include my life as part of your paradigm.
I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't been around wrestling for a long time.

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I will say that if you take the time to READ the post, it will make more sense to you. I never said I flucturated from 152lbs to 215lbs. Specifically, my max weight has been 198lbs, with a normal "heavy weight" at ~193lbs, and I would only be down at 152lbs or 155lbs for about 6hrs at a time. It was easy to stay under 160lbs walking to wrestle 152lbs a few days a week when I was young, now it's a LONG fight to get down to 155 for more than a day out of every 3-4 months. As I mentioned in my post, getting down to fight at 155 HURTS, and would require full time effort, which isn't on my agenda these days.
Your state must do things much differently than mine. In order to wrestle heavyweight you had to be above a certain weight. I don't know exactly what it was but we had guys weighing in with water jugs, boots, etc in order to be above the required weight.

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My WALKING WEIGHT has fluctuated up and down between ~163lbs and ~193lbs.

I suppose it's VERY fair to say that I get under 7% during "lean cycles" where I'm competing a lot, especially wrestling seasons. Back in high school, bioimpedance monitors (electrode systems) would measure me less than 1% fat, calipers would measure 2-3%, and "tank tests" showed me at 5% during wrestling seasons. When I cut down to wrestle 160lbs my senior year, I had chronic nosebleeds, blacked out easily, and had fits of "vertigo" pretty badly, so I focus on staying over 5% measured fat. 7% is a comfortable maintenance fat for me. I also notice a distinct loss in performance any time I get over 10% (I've been a pro-athlete for the last 10yrs, with an 11month per year season), so I can't let myself get too "chubby".

HOWEVER, pretty much anytime you go online and talk about being 5% fat, some nay-sayer like yourself ends up challenging that unless you came to their technician at their favored lab and did DEXA or BOD Pod with them, then you must be lying. So 7% is about average bottom end for me, and it doesn't cause fits for people that think it's impossible to run incredibly lean, so I don't talk about the super lean phase when I actually walk on the mat.
Well, in my first post I never said anything about your BF%, but I hope you don't think that those electrode measurements are accurate. 5% is doable and not terribly uncommon in wrestling, but 1% is completely absurd.

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10% measured has been my top end typically (have had regular dex, bod pod, calipers, etc. I bioimped every friday for directional changes). Sure, I've been up in 11 and 12% at times, but nothing maintained for any amount of time. I usually have the luxury of being pretty lean when I start going up, and every pound of muscle dilutes your fat gains:

165lbs @ 7% fat = 11.5lbs fat, 153.5lbs lean
195lbs @ 10% fat = 19.5lbs fat, 175.5lbs lean

Give or take 8lbs of fat in there to play with, 20lbs of muscle to build. REALLY not that much to ask for in a year's time, and take bites of it in stages. When I start feeling sluggish while gaining, I cut the fat back down, and reset.

Going back the other way, the fat usually comes off faster than the lean muscle, which is why I focus so hard on avoiding protein during my "mass trimming" phases.
My problem is that you are saying you would chop off ~20ish lbs of muscle. You do realize that water is lean mass, right? I've cut my fair share of weight but would never intentionally cut muscle, and have never heard of anyone doing that before, aside from people trying desperately to avoid a certain opponent.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:41 AM   #22
Dakota Base
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Re: Need advice on dropping excess muscle mass

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Originally Posted by Brad Allen Jones View Post
Your state must do things much differently than mine. In order to wrestle heavyweight you had to be above a certain weight. I don't know exactly what it was but we had guys weighing in with water jugs, boots, etc in order to be above the required weight.
As I mentioned in my post, I had to weigh a minimum of 190lbs to wrestle at 250 class. The rule was that you could only wrestle in your appropriate class and the one above it. At the time, the classes took big jumps for big guys, 160, 171, 189, 215, and 250. So I had to weigh 190+. We weren't, however, allowed to weigh in with shoes on, the best you could get was your jeans and no shirt or shoes.

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Originally Posted by Brad Allen Jones View Post
Well, in my first post I never said anything about your BF%, but I hope you don't think that those electrode measurements are accurate. 5% is doable and not terribly uncommon in wrestling, but 1% is completely absurd.
That was actually the point of my post. I'm very familiar with the limitations of bioimpedance and skin-fold calipers for fat testing. Measuring less than 1% via electrodes was obviously in error, as were the calipers reading 2-3%. Which is why my doc's at the time (since I was passing out at random, chronic nose bleeds, etc) ordered "tank tests" - BOD Pod wasn't a thing yet, but same idea - to check up on me. The point was that guys like yourself criticize EVERYTHING that anyone ever says about being sub-5%, even if you get irrefutable, reliable testing done that confirms it. I'd NEVER say I was under 1% fat, but I HAVE been under 5%, confirmed by DEX scans. The problem is that the innaccuracy of calipers and bioimpedance makes people so cynical about any fat testing, that they don't believe that someone can live that low when they're working so hard to get to 10%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Allen Jones View Post
My problem is that you are saying you would chop off ~20ish lbs of muscle. You do realize that water is lean mass, right? I've cut my fair share of weight but would never intentionally cut muscle, and have never heard of anyone doing that before, aside from people trying desperately to avoid a certain opponent.
I don't usually count water weight against my lean mass, and I work hard to ensure proper hydration whenever I do any fat testing. That's also why I said I keep myself within ~12lbs of "fighting weight". In that specific example, as in if I decide to go back to fighting at 155, yes, I'd drop about 20lbs of muscle to get me cruising at 165ish, and then cut that last 10-12lbs of waterweight and "trim fat" to get to 155. Don't believe it if you don't want to, that's your luxury, but that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Maybe YOU wouldn't cut muscle, but I'd argue that you have been exposed to people that do, even if you maybe didn't realize it. It's very common practice for marathoners, triathletes, or other endurance athletes to intentionally atrophy their muscle mass for efficiency. There are even books written on the topic for that purpose, which I cited earlier.

It's also not even that uncommon in fighting/wrestling. There are rules dictating how wrestlers must validate health while making big weight cuts for a reason - because it happens. A few guys I wrestled with would cut down from fighting 160lbs/walking 170 down to wrestle 145lbs, all you had to do was go get another physical to have a doc say you were "healthy". A pro fighter I train with (2x world champion kickboxer) cut 2yrs ago to 155lbs after fighting a lean 170lbs (walking 180ish) for years.

Heck, take a look at current UFC fighters. Just this weekend, we saw Lyoto Machida fight at Middleweight (185lbs). Sure, he wasn't ever super ripped when he fought at Light Heavyweight (205lbs), but I won't be easily convinced that he lost over 20lbs of bodymass strictly in water and fat, I honestly don't think he had that much to lose at 205lbs. You can see in his size that he trimmed back some muscle. (Example, compare weigh in photos from Fight Night 36 to UFC 163).

We'll see Vitor Belfort make the same change, dropping 20lbs from Light HW where he has been for a few years. This will be the second time he's made the transition. How fat did Frankie Edgar look at UFC 150 at lightweight (155) before making it down to Featherweight (145) at UFC 156?

Guys cut muscle mass all the time. It's not the majority practice, but it's not unheard of, or even uncommon.

Last edited by Dakota Base : 02-16-2014 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:31 PM   #23
Sara Ochsner
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Re: Need advice on dropping excess muscle mass

Tyler, here are a few links I found addressing your questions. Good luck.

http://fitnessblackbook.com/muscle-b...ss-on-purpose/. WFS

http://www.livestrong.com/article/47...thighs/#page=1 WFS


http://fitnessblackandwhite.com/how-to-lose-muscle/ WFS

http://howtolosemuscle.com/ WFS
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:07 PM   #24
Tyler P. Jones
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Re: Need advice on dropping excess muscle mass

Hey Sara,

Those links are great. I have actually read all of them now except for that last one, which really sums it up nicely. What I was looking for were the elegant directives which that particular article lays out nicely, like:

eat 10-15% less calories than normal
drink a lot of water
do frequent/longer cardio sessions
no training whatsoever that would create a "pump"

All in all, it's pretty simple, what I was looking for from this thread was simple advice from someone that either actually(!) knew what they were talking about and/or has done it successfully before. Specifically, I was curious about how much to eat, what to eat, and how to work out, which at this point is pretty clear.

Thanks everyone for chipping in your two cents, I really appreciate it.
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:12 PM   #25
Tyler P. Jones
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Re: Need advice on dropping excess muscle mass

@Dakota Base,

Thanks for the info again.

I should have explained before, I am looking to cut rather quickly for a couple reasons, but the primary reason is so that I could get back to the point where I could do the training that I love at a much more powerful and dynamic weight.

Additionally, the sooner I get to my target weight, the sooner I can start hittin it hard both on the rocks for fun and in the pool/track for that SOF selection that I want to be on-spot for. I figured whatever I have to do to drop excess muscle mass is probably going to make me weak AND be extremely boring, so the sooner I reach the destination, the sooner I can start building strength and stamina again. Hope that clears it up. Let me know if I'm leaving anything out!
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:22 PM   #26
Zac Metz
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Re: Need advice on dropping excess muscle mass

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Originally Posted by Tyler P. Jones View Post
Additionally, the sooner I get to my target weight, the sooner I can start hittin it hard both on the rocks for fun and in the pool/track for that SOF selection that I want to be on-spot for. I figured whatever I have to do to drop excess muscle mass is probably going to make me weak AND be extremely boring, so the sooner I reach the destination, the sooner I can start building strength and stamina again. Hope that clears it up. Let me know if I'm leaving anything out!

I'm guessing you are looking at either Navy Seal or SWCC for your selection, unless you are already in right now, so we'll assume you are joining to go to boot camp and then on to one of the qualification programs. (I'm guessing this is your time crunch?)

Why exactly can't you go climb and run/swim before you make your weight?

Last year I was on a short deployment and spent 3 months eating a crap diet (1 scoop of protein a day plus "deployment food") and just with that diet and working out 4-6x per week I lost 20lbs of muscle in those 3 months. And yes, before I get yelled at, it was muscle. I left at 5'11, 195lbs and came back at 174 lbs. I did majority high rep (12+) work with weights, and a lot of body weight stuff (pushups, pullups). Most of my heavy lifts/1RM's dropped by 10-20%, but my cardio numbers all went up. I didn't run much, ships don't really treat runners too well, but I did have a 45-60 min cardio session 2x per week.

You dont NEED to stop training, just stop lifting heavy and eating like you want to get big. If you think you will struggle swimming because of muscle mass/density you need to just get in the pool and swim. My body fat has dropped since I have started to swim and I have been getting faster and faster because of technique and endurance practice. In all honesty a whole lot of running, swimming, body weight work and a clean (low calorie) diet will get you where you need to be. There is no need to get all technical, its a simple concept.
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