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Old 11-25-2010, 03:15 PM   #201
Glenn Pendlay
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
I am not going to be quite as wordy in my response.

First, the USAW hasn't done **** in terms of any sort of high level success in a long time (there may have been 1 or 2 lighter weight class relative successes, but that isn't saying much for the USA). Heck, they couldn't even help or mold two of the strongest men in the world (Mark Henry and Shane Hamman) into the gold medal winners (or at least competitive for it) they should or could have been. In other words, the USAW is broke and they need fixing. What is the definition of insanity? Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

On that note, Louie hasn't done anything to warrant them sending him anyone? Lol, gee, I guess making virtually every athlete he has ever worked with bigger, faster, and or stronger doesn't warrant the USAW giving him consideration??? I would think the USAW would be willing to try just about anything to get back to where they once were (yes, there was a day when the US dominated Olympic weightlifting). Maybe they should reanimate Bob Hoffman... JUST A JOKE!

I know you know Louie.

By the way, I know enough to know a good powerlifter does not necessarily make for a good Olympic lifter and vice versa. That has nothing to do with Louie, who as a STRENGTH coach could help lifters to get STRONGER which IS a component of Olympic lifting, being able to help get the USA back to dominance.
I hope you realize that "THE USAW" does not control how weightlifters in the USA train. Somehow, when folks talk about "THE USAW" is broke, it seems as if they think this. Weightlifters here train in a HUGE variety of ways, all the way from using the Westside system adapted to weightlifting as best as they can, to pure "bulgarian" style training to what louie would call something like "western periodization" I think, the old a few weeks of 10's, few weeks of 5's, etc. And everything in between as well as most probably stuff I have never seen or heard of.

Second, I think that the fact that neither Mark Henry nor Shane Hammon, who you call two of the strongest men in the world could succeed in weightlifting to the point of gold medals, while some who can barely front squat 5 or 10kilos more than their clean and jerk set records and win world championships speaks volumes.

I myself went down the road of "more strength at all costs" when it comes to weightlifting, saw that it didn't work that way, realized my error and moved on and had success.

And, I obviously think that Louie had done plenty to warrant attention from the weightlifting world. Obviously, because I took lifters to visit him, and have certainly valued his advice. But, for the weightlifting world at large to look to him for advice, he is going to have to have some success working with a weightlifter. I guess it's sort of a chicken or egg situation, which is too bad, but, its reality.
 
Old 11-25-2010, 03:17 PM   #202
Craig Massey
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
Very cool, Jeff! I think this is what I needed to hear. Were all the results that you spoke of while also maintaining a level of conditioning, or were some based on pure strength programs?

With results like these are you leaving CFSB behind completely? Do you feel your current programing is just hands down better? What shape does your programming take these days? We've seen in the journal a lot of versions of this: Chan's 1 ME, 2 DE, Mason's 2 ME no DE, Tom Seryak's 2 ME 2 DE. What's working well for your guinea pigs? Are you using bands and/or chains? How often are you switching up the exercises? Thanks for any info!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Been playing with adding strength to CrossFit for awhile, and have a little anecdotal stuff to add here. When I tried to add SS, probably four years ago, to CF it was a disaster. Rip could have told me that, and probably saved me a bunch of heartache.

I read Westside Book of Methods played around with the ideas there and had some success. Went to Louie's first seminar last December and have had great success. My first two lab rats, were my oldest boy and his training partner. Jake, 185#, just squatted 500, Connor, 160#'s just squatted 405. Significantly they were both able to make progress on their metcons. Jake's Fran moved from 4:00 to under 3:00 and Connor's from 2:30 to 2:14.

I started using Westside Methods affiliate wide in May. Everyone has seen significant gains, across the board. My favorite is a young lady whose deadlift was under 200 at the start and pulled 305 last month, at a bodyweight of 110. Runner up is a 65 year old that couldn't tie his shoes a year ago and pulled 375 last month.

On the subject of kids, we began using Westside methods in our teen lifting class last January. Some of my favorite successes were. A 17 year old who showed up at our gym with a back squat of 135 and a deadlift of 185. We returned him to his track team with a squat of 280 and a 355 dead. He won the high jump in the California State Meet with a 7 foot jump. Yes you can get explosive doing this stuff. We have a 14 year old, 175#, who pulled 400# and 390 x 3. Another 14 year old, 145#, who just pulled 300 tonight and has more in him. My middle boy who is 17 and 145#, just squatted 305 and pulled 385. He also power cleaned 230, snatched 175 and standing box jumped 54". The kids above can do all the "Girls" as rx'd.

We have had great success with the Westside Method, we keep getting stronger with out feeling beat up or worn out.
This thread does fly past doesn't it?
Not sure Jeff's spotted these questions, so I'll take a stab at them as an interim measure and let Jeff know that they've been asked.
I'm pretty sure what I'm about to say is correct, but if Jeff contradicts me, he's right and I'm wrong. Obviously.

The inclusion of Westside principles into the programming at Brand X was definitely achieved without sacrificing time spent on conditioning. I'm sure Jeff's posted some of the metcon improvements achieved during the same period those lifts happened over on the Brand X forum or on Facebook, but I can't lay my hands on them right now. They're equally impressive.
The training incorporating Westside principles is conducted differently for separate groups of athletes.
Some do not participate in the general class and follow the CFSB model of a strength workout followed by a short, sharp metcon. The interval between those sessions can be as short as a few minutes or they can be morning and afternoon sessions. It depends on the participants' schedule.
Two groups use this model, the Skunkworks crew, comprising trainers and others who can be at the gym when the gym is quiet and some of the CF Kids Teens group. The Teens have a nominated weightlifing class where the platforms are very busy as the Teen athletes work through their assigned lifts for the day. Almost immediately after follows the CF Teens WOD with a separate buy-in, WOD and cash-out. I'm pretty sure (but not positive) that not all of the Teens participate in the weightlifting class. It was an invitation only club at one stage although that may have changed. When I watched the classes while at Brand X earlier this year I didn't pay attention to that aspect, sorry. Jeff runs those Teen lifting sessions himself with the help of at least one other trainer and logs the results

For the general classes the Westside based work is incorporated as a mixture of Buy-ins and as the main WOD. Some days the Buy-in will be speed deadlifts, others it will be find your 3RM (just examples) and then you go on and do the WOD (a heavy Diane in the case of the 3RM Deadlift day when I was there for example). Other days the heavy work will be the WOD although that's a diminishing trend these days.
The Brand X WODs are posted to the CrossFit Brand X Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/CrossF...y/303227087844) reasonably often.
The general class aren't aware that they're following a program that uses Westside, CFSB or any other principles. They just show up and do what's on the whiteboard. As a result it's a less focussed effort to adhere to a program with tracking of results left to the individual, although I know Jeff recently programmed a mass progress test of the strength levels at Brand X to measure progress, which is where some of the numbers he quoted in his post came from.

No, CFSB hasn't been left behind, or rather CFSB as documented in the Journal article has yes, but really CFSB was just a catchy label (blame Bingo) applied to a snapshot of how Jeff programmed for Brand X at that time. Jeff doesn't regard CFSB as a separate program, it's just an expression of CrossFit. A different expression than the mainsite programming, but still CrossFit taken straight from Coach' "Virtuosity" article. That aspect of the programming had been evolving and improving for 2 years before the Journal article came out and has continued to evolve and improve since then. So it's been over 4 years in the making and has been tested across a broad range of athletes ages and abilities. I guess you could say that CFSB now includes principles adopted from Westside if you want to stay with the CFSB label for convenience' sake. If you want to see how it works you'll have to travel to Ramona and talk to Jeff as I don't believe that there are any plans to publish an updated CFSB. I'm one of the people Jeff "blames" for "forcing" him to document the last incarnation of his programming and I know he blames us for all of the hassle he has had as a result of it.

The Teen's week is structured as follows:
Quote:
Teens Lift Twice a Week.
Deadlift on Tuesday, Back squat on Thursday

3x/week minimum Oly lift
2x/ week Jump (Box, broad etc.)
4x/ week vestibular
4x/ week agility/plyometric
With the general classes looking something similar.

The Skunkworks and Alpha (Connor, Jake and a few others at a similar, competitive CFers, level) crews do use bands and chains. The general class doesn't and I don't think that the Teens do at the moment at least.

I think that answers most of your questions. If you have more I encourage you to sign on over at the Brand X forum (http://www.crossfitbrandx.com/index....s/viewforum/1/) and ask them rather than divert poor Chris' topic. He's got enough to deal with as it is by the looks and I'm not sure I'll spot any further questions here. And I know that Jeff wanted the Brand X forum to be "CFSB Central" when we discussed this a year or two back. Also, the people following Jeff's programming using the westside principles hang out there so you've a better chance of getting input from people who are able to be at Brand X more often than a short visit every 2 years.

Hope that helps.

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Old 11-25-2010, 03:27 PM   #203
Glenn Pendlay
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Graeme Howland View Post
Pretty sure I've read that some high level weightlifting coaches use PVC/broomstick with all new lifters starting out including Pendlay, John Broz (with Pat Mendes) and Shane Hammon when he switched to weightlifting from powerlifting. Could be wrong on which coaches specifically, but I know I've read of it for technique work. It has it's place in learning the snatch for sure without question.
For the record, I would like to say that I am not a fan of PVC, even for a total beginner doing their first ever attempt at getting a bar overhead. I just dont think it lets you get the "feel" of the lift. if necessary, use a 10kg or a 5kg bar.

I have always thought that PVC was used, or at least originally used, because there were not enough bars, or at least light 5, 10, or 15kg bars to go around for large classes or certifications.
 
Old 11-25-2010, 03:38 PM   #204
Shannon Mullens
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay View Post
For the record, I would like to say that I am not a fan of PVC, even for a total beginner doing their first ever attempt at getting a bar overhead. I just dont think it lets you get the "feel" of the lift. if necessary, use a 10kg or a 5kg bar.

I have always thought that PVC was used, or at least originally used, because there were not enough bars, or at least light 5, 10, or 15kg bars to go around for large classes or certifications.
When I've used PVC it's been because I was literally not strong enough to learn the lift with the 45lb bars which are the only ones available where I train.

Fortunately I've fixed that, and I think we're using that PVC for drainage work on the lawn this spring.
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Old 11-25-2010, 03:43 PM   #205
Craig Massey
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Craig Massey View Post
No, CFSB hasn't been left behind, or rather CFSB as documented in the Journal article has yes, but really CFSB was just a catchy label (blame Bingo) applied to a snapshot of how Jeff programmed for Brand X at that time. Jeff doesn't regard CFSB as a separate program, it's just an expression of CrossFit. A different expression than the mainsite programming, but still CrossFit taken straight from Coach' "Virtuosity" article. That aspect of the programming had been evolving and improving for 2 years before the Journal article came out and has continued to evolve and improve since then. So it's been over 4 years in the making and has been tested across a broad range of athletes ages and abilities. I guess you could say that CFSB now includes principles adopted from Westside if you want to stay with the CFSB label for convenience' sake. If you want to see how it works you'll have to travel to Ramona and talk to Jeff as I don't believe that there are any plans to publish an updated CFSB. I'm one of the people Jeff "blames" for "forcing" him to document the last incarnation of his programming and I know he blames us for all of the hassle he has had as a result of it.
Apparently there is an intention to publish V2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Ted,
Alex is coming back strong! Very cool to watch.

Aron,
There is a v.2, but like the first article, we are data gathering and refining before we release it. However if you have been following our facebook you have a pretty clear pic of how effective it is, the whole box is posting insane pr's. Last week we had a 60 year old pull 370 and 105 pound women pull 305.

Here is the rest of Jake's CFT + front squats. (WS/FS)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdrb4L8xsLo

By the way Jake weighs about 185 and still runs about a 5:15 mile.
At least Jeff can't blame me for the flood of emails he'll be dealing with this time.
 
Old 11-25-2010, 03:46 PM   #206
Jeff Martin
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Craig Massey View Post
Apparently there is an intention to publish V2.


At least Jeff can't blame me for the flood of emails he'll be dealing with this time.
I still blame you. Slipped walking to the car today. Pretty sure it was your fault.
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Old 11-25-2010, 03:51 PM   #207
Craig Massey
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
I still blame you. Slipped walking to the car today. Pretty sure it was your fault.
Typical. Darn hillbillies know how to hold onto a grudge way past the time anyone else would have declared the statute of limitations had expired.
Didn't Gonzo get you a walker a while back? Not my fault if you're too stubborn to use it.
 
Old 11-25-2010, 04:03 PM   #208
Glenn Pendlay
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
I am not going to be quite as wordy in my response.

First, the USAW hasn't done **** in terms of any sort of high level success in a long time (there may have been 1 or 2 lighter weight class relative successes, but that isn't saying much for the USA). Heck, they couldn't even help or mold two of the strongest men in the world (Mark Henry and Shane Hamman) into the gold medal winners (or at least competitive for it) they should or could have been. In other words, the USAW is broke and they need fixing. What is the definition of insanity? Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

On that note, Louie hasn't done anything to warrant them sending him anyone? Lol, gee, I guess making virtually every athlete he has ever worked with bigger, faster, and or stronger doesn't warrant the USAW giving him consideration??? I would think the USAW would be willing to try just about anything to get back to where they once were (yes, there was a day when the US dominated Olympic weightlifting). Maybe they should reanimate Bob Hoffman... JUST A JOKE!

I know you know Louie.

By the way, I know enough to know a good powerlifter does not necessarily make for a good Olympic lifter and vice versa. That has nothing to do with Louie, who as a STRENGTH coach could help lifters to get STRONGER which IS a component of Olympic lifting, being able to help get the USA back to dominance.
And by the way, Chris, just so you don't think that I am just trying to be disagreeable with you, I used Westside style training when I did powerlifting. After having been stalled for some time doing more normal training, WSB training added about 250-300lbs to my total fairly quickly.

Also, many of the athletes I work with now use a lot of stuff I have "borrowed" from Louie. Pretty much everyone used the reverse hyper several times a week. Many of my weightlifters use stuff that looks a lot like the speed sets that I originally learned from Louie. Athletes that we are preparing for NFL combines all use box squats and have squatting programs that look a lot like westside.

And, look at what is now called the "Texas Method" and use your imagination a little. Hopefully you will have read my account of how that particular program was happened upon. A heavy "max effort" day and a higher volume day, hmmm, what does that sound like? In a lot of the material I have written about this method, including the first couple of drafts of the "intermediate" chapter in Practical Programming, I have given Louie and Westside lots of credit, and recommended a "morphing" of this method into a more pure Westside methodology when gains started to slow.

So, I am not an enemy of Westside at all. Far from it.
 
Old 11-25-2010, 05:51 PM   #209
Rene Forestier
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay View Post
For the record, I would like to say that I am not a fan of PVC, even for a total beginner doing their first ever attempt at getting a bar overhead. I just dont think it lets you get the "feel" of the lift. if necessary, use a 10kg or a 5kg bar.

I have always thought that PVC was used, or at least originally used, because there were not enough bars, or at least light 5, 10, or 15kg bars to go around for large classes or certifications.
Perhaps I should reconsider my methods and spring for some 5kg bars...I've heard Muscle Driver is an adequate company.
 
Old 11-25-2010, 06:26 PM   #210
Glenn Pendlay
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Rene Forestier View Post
Perhaps I should reconsider my methods and spring for some 5kg bars...I've heard Muscle Driver is an adequate company.
Now you see the REAL reason I dont like PVC.

To be honest, I have seen some people fill PVC with sand or dirt or something that makes them weigh roughly 10-15lbs and cap the ends. The diameter makes them far inferior to a 5kg bar, but, its still better than a basic PVC pipe, which is basically weightless.
 
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