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Old 05-26-2006, 09:20 AM   #31
David Stegman
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Gotcha brother....no biggie!

Good discussion though...one of those never ending ones!
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Old 05-26-2006, 09:53 AM   #32
Bryan Veis
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Gun disarms are a topic I have a particular interest in.

This post is not a criticism of Krav Maga gun defense techniques, since I have not seen enough of them to be certain, BUT, based on still photo series purporting to illustrate KM techniques, I do question some of them.

Some years ago, I purchased an unarmed-defense-against-weapons tape from TRS Direct and worked with several partners on techniques. The two men who created the tape (Bob Taylor and Randy Wanner) had done some very interesting experiments (in the don't-try-this-at-home mode). They put on motorcycle helmets with heavy-duty face shields and started trying out every gun disarm they had ever seen or heard about using blanks with wax plugs. (Both have military backgrounds.) They found certain techniques that were supposed to be easy disarms did not work (that is, they got shot), and after extensive videotape analysis (replicated on the tapes) they concluded that many of the techniques they had been taught had the unintended consequence of forcing their opponent to pull the trigger because the wrist had been manipulated in a manner that forced the trigger finger to bend.

You can try it yourself -- hold your hand as if you were holding a pistol. If you push on the gun hand in a way that forces it outward at the wrist, it will make your fingers curl in; if you push on the hand so that the hand bends inward at the wrist, the fingers straighten. Taylor and Wanner concluded that any disarm technique that involves pushing the gun hand out while maintaining the arm in a relatively constant position (that is, so the wrist bends) has a very high probability of forcing the firearm to discharge, often before the muzzle is clear of the defender's body. Therefore, they concluded, it is far better to work in the other direction. They found that there were fewer discharges and fewer shots that hit the defender. (I hope that we could all agree that there is no fail-safe technique, and that the risk of failure is one of the factors that goes into anyone's decision to attempt or not attempt a disarm in any specific situation. Assuming that to be the case, the choice of technique would be controlled by two factors: likelihood of success and likelihood of suffering injury in the process.)

I think that they made a very convincing case. They developed or expanded on a series of techniques that are based on the opposite movement, i.e., forcing the wrist to bend inward and taking pressure off the trigger, but still directing the muzzle in a safe direction. I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I have practiced enough of their techniques to have some sense of the timing involved. I believe that they got it right.

Some of the Krav Maga techniques I have seen, appear to violate the Taylor-Wanner dictum. Someone with experience in KM may be able to provide some enlightenment on that, and I would be very interested in hearing about it.
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Old 05-26-2006, 10:18 AM   #33
Jeff Martin
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Bryan,
I know your description is clear, but I got kicked in the head last night and I'm having a hard time following along. I'll play with the disarms this weekend and get back to you. (We use air soft, not like the real thing but at least you know when you screw up)
One thing I would point out that is key to understanding Krav Maga's approach to self defense is that it is priciple based and not technique based. The principles for the gun technique are:
Redirect the line of fire
Control the weapon
Counter attack
Take the weapon
It's done in that order in every technique, and you cannot violate the order. In other words if you redirect the line of fire, and then control the weapon, at no time during the counterattack do you bring yourself back into the line of fire, or relinquish control of the weapon. So, that having been said if you are out of the line of fire and you are controling the weapon, it doesn't matter if the gun goes off, during the take away.
I would also argue that the takeaway is the least important part of the technique, and unfortunately the part most systems focus on.
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Old 05-26-2006, 11:29 AM   #34
Barry Cooper
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This is where footwork comes in. If you move your body too, a lot of that objection disappears. If you keep the gun pointed exactly where it was, but I'm not there, I'm good. If I have it way off line AND I'm not there, even better. In my mind, I think of guns as light sabers that will cut me in two if they cross my path.

The arms are largely a means for connecting your hips and legs to external objects. This could, I think, be viewed as a CrossFit truism. Given that, it surprises me how little thought, it appears to me, many martial arts seem to give to manipulating this relationship for maximal benefit. I'm not just talking about using the hips for punching; I'm talking about using the whole body to disrupt their whole body. Their movement patterns, their balance, their space, their perceptions.

I'm profoundly ignorant as to much of what goes on out there, so that isn't intended as a specific criticism of anything or anyone.
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:11 PM   #35
Brad Hirakawa
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To humbly quote someone famous... "having a gun is the first rule in a gunfight."

I favor (after proper training of course) a CCW permit and a reliable pistol that you have spent a considerable amount of time shooting. Tons of practice with the gun, basic skills, marksmanship, weapon retention, close range gunfighting, legal aspects, more practice, regular practice, more practice, etc. etc. Not to replace your "hand-to-hand" skills, but to work along with them.

Plenty of good pistol schools out there, and many of them allow civilians (like me).

I am not an expert, I'm simply paraphrasing the opinions of experts I've learned/heard from in the past.

Brad




(Message edited by hirakawa on May 26, 2006)
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:14 PM   #36
Jeff Martin
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With that attitude Brad.....you would fit right in at Brand X.:wink:
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:36 PM   #37
Tim Weaver
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There is a KM "dojo" very near me in Glendale, Arizona, run by the same folks who run KM Phoenix. Friend said their fees are a "membership" in addition to the class fees...not sure about that, though.

Might go check them out some day.

Me? I agree with Brad. A gun is another tool in the toolbox, and one that can work at futher-than-arms-length ranges.
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Old 05-26-2006, 01:48 PM   #38
Barry Cooper
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Upon consideration, perhaps one reason for the seemingly "religious" nature of this debate, is the amount of faith needed in what one does.

I agree with Brad, and have really said about all I have to say on other threads. I've trained in some form of martial arts for a long time, but, depending on where I am and what I'm doing, I usually have an equalizer of some sort close at hand. I will add, that pepper spray, stun guns and what I think are called swagger sticks, are all options allowing defense without using lethal force. Apparently even tasers are legal now in 43 states. Did not know that. It's apparently a hot issue in Tennessee right now.

Your best bet is always to avoid trouble. That's the only way to guarantee a win every time.

Other than that, I've been told more than once by folks living in the country (especially) that their martial art is Smith and Wesson Do. Makes sense.

I know the caliber of people on this board--how good so many of you are at what you do--so I think I'm going to start trying to shut up a bit more. I know I have a great deal to be modest about.
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:30 PM   #39
Sam Cannons
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What a great discussion. Having never studied KM before, i am kind of suprised but glad to see that it is very similar to the style of Chinese Boxing i teach, i have always heard good things from KM.

Regards
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Old 05-28-2006, 09:59 PM   #40
Bobbi Beglau Salvini
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I can’t imagine with kids in my life having a gun close enough at hand, and ready to use to be of any use. It would probably be a distraction to what I need to do. I do, once a year meet with relatives to use twelve different guns. I think it is a good idea for everyone to know how to load, fire and disarm fire arms of various types. In my first self defense class this was a requirement of all students.

Regarding injuries, I had a college friend who volunteered for the San Bernardino, CA search and rescue patrol. He was practicing free style night time rock climbing and was jumped by four guys, and knifed seven times. He ran two miles for help, and lived.

My nieces step-dad was shot five times by the elderly next door neighbor lady. He ran and dove behind a curb before she could unload the next gun she had ready. He lived, but perhaps he could have taken fewer shots if he had tried to disarm.

My secretary’s husband was shot five time at close range by a cleaning man he fired. He lived, but KM might have reduced his injuries.

My nephew was car jacked and when the man told him to go into a dark abandoned area he disarmed the man(knife) and shoved him out the door.

My sister’s next door neighbor, while with her husband and her young daughter, were attacked by four armed men. She got the gun while one was rapping her, and then shot all of them. Sweet.

A friend of mine was held at gun point by a guy at a bus stop. He told her to get in his truck. She made herself into a ball, told him to take her purse if he wanted, but that if she went with him she felt he would kill her and she would rater die there. He took the purse and left.

I can go on, bottom line, having options is good. The conditions are endless, and woman are more likely to be killed. Whatever you decide, if you get cut/stabbed or shot, don’t give up.
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