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Old 03-05-2009, 12:45 PM   #1491
Allison Bishop
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Re: AllisonNYC

Power Clean and Jerk - 140

115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140 145 (power Cleaned it but failed on the Jerk by a little)

145 is a Power Clean PR by 10#
140 is a Jerk PR by 5#
140 is a C&J PR

Did the CFE WOD as a warm up:
10:5 x 20
C2 set on 10 damper
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:02 PM   #1492
Aimee Anaya
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Re: AllisonNYC

Hey allison-

So, I heard through the gossip mill that you overhead squatted 185#. Fantastic job, that is some serious weight! Good on ya'!

However, I just wanted to ask you something... I heard that when you overhead squat you take it right off the rack in the overhead position. Is this true? I am only asking because in the weightlifting world, an OHS does not count unless you take it off the rack on your back, snatch push press it up, and then overhead squat it. People have been asking me about your OHS, and are wondering why it is counted in the way you are doing it. An OHS is not really a strength move, in a sense, it is more a skilled move... so if you aren't able to get it up there in the first place, and have to assist it up there (i.e. taking it out of the racks in the overhead position), it is not a legit OHS.

Anyway, sorry to bogart your thread. I was just checking in about this so I can actually answer the questions being thrown at me.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:24 PM   #1493
Jay Ashman
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Re: AllisonNYC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimee Anaya View Post
Hey allison-

So, I heard through the gossip mill that you overhead squatted 185#. Fantastic job, that is some serious weight! Good on ya'!

However, I just wanted to ask you something... I heard that when you overhead squat you take it right off the rack in the overhead position. Is this true? I am only asking because in the weightlifting world, an OHS does not count unless you take it off the rack on your back, snatch push press it up, and then overhead squat it. People have been asking me about your OHS, and are wondering why it is counted in the way you are doing it. An OHS is not really a strength move, in a sense, it is more a skilled move... so if you aren't able to get it up there in the first place, and have to assist it up there (i.e. taking it out of the racks in the overhead position), it is not a legit OHS.

Anyway, sorry to bogart your thread. I was just checking in about this so I can actually answer the questions being thrown at me.
impressive OHS nonetheless, but you are right... if it is done in the way you describe, it is not a legit OHS at all.

not taking away from the fact that she is holding 185 overhead and squatting it, that takes balance and good strength, but a proper OHS needs to be racked from a press position.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:13 PM   #1494
Allison Bishop
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Re: AllisonNYC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimee Anaya View Post
Hey allison-

So, I heard through the gossip mill that you overhead squatted 185#. Fantastic job, that is some serious weight! Good on ya'!

However, I just wanted to ask you something... I heard that when you overhead squat you take it right off the rack in the overhead position. Is this true? I am only asking because in the weightlifting world, an OHS does not count unless you take it off the rack on your back, snatch push press it up, and then overhead squat it. People have been asking me about your OHS, and are wondering why it is counted in the way you are doing it. An OHS is not really a strength move, in a sense, it is more a skilled move... so if you aren't able to get it up there in the first place, and have to assist it up there (i.e. taking it out of the racks in the overhead position), it is not a legit OHS.

Anyway, sorry to bogart your thread. I was just checking in about this so I can actually answer the questions being thrown at me.
Hey Amiee,

Nice to hear from you. I hope all is going well for you in your new gym!

Gossip mill is a good way to describe it.

I know who brought this up to you. She took it up with me somewhere else but left me with more questions than anything. I'm sure you'll be able to answer them.

I've brought this issue up on the comments section of the main site and here in my log plenty of times looking for answers. I asked if it's ok to take the bar from a high rack since I can't jerk as much as I can OHS. I never got a clear answer. Lots of opinions on both sides but no real reasoning for either.

FTR the only reason I didn't note Off The Rack this time is because I've talked about it SO much that I didn't think I needed to say it anymore. But I'll be sure from now on to continue to make a note when I front squat, press, or OHS from the rack!


I have three questions
:

1. Why is it ok to take a front squat from the rack but not an OHS?

I take my heavy Front Squats from the rack because I can only clean 155# but can front squat 185# from the rack. And also because that's how I was taught.

I figure why should my Front Squat be limited by how much I can clean? By that same logic I'm wondering why my OHS should be determined by how much I can jerk?

What are racks ok for then?! Why are some lifts legit from the rack but not the OHS??

2. If I can't take my max OHS and front squats from the rack anymore and I have to clean or jerk them into position then will I still be gaining squatting strength? My front squat and OHS are significantly higher than the lifts I'd need to do to get them into place. How can I do a 1RM that way??

It seems like I'd be shorting myself in the FS and OHS because I'd be playing with weights that are cake to lift.
For example: I can only jerk 140 or 145 but can OHS that for plenty of reps. I can only clean 155# but again, can FS that for reps as well.

I think you get the point.

3. If the OHS is strictly a skill exercise and not a strength exercise, then why do we do 1, 3 or 5RM OHS?? Why not just always play with light weights?

I appreciate you weighing in. I've been asking about this for a while now. I'm not really sure why how I'm lifting or how much was such an issue for your friend that she's discussing it with people and even calling you in for reinforcements. Either way I'm happy I'll finally get the answers I've been looking for.

I'm always anxious to learn more about this stuff since it's all relatively new to me. And all the information I can get from someone like you will only make me a better athlete and trainer. That's all I want.

In the end, over head squatting as heavy as I can makes sense to me. Limiting my squats by my pressing strength doesn't. I'm not as concerned with people "counting" my lift as much as I am with getting stronger and fitter. That's why we do this stuff, right???

From my understanding, a front squat starts with the bar on the shoulders and "counts" if it's squatted and stood up. The OHS starts overhead and "counts" when it's squatted and stood up. I didn't know an OHS is actually a snatch jerk, OHS.

I just haven't been able to come up with a reason that the OHS has it's own set of rules.

Thanks again, Amiee. I look forward to gaining some clarity on the WHY.
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Last edited by Allison Bishop; 03-06-2009 at 07:38 PM..
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:28 PM   #1495
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Re: AllisonNYC

1. Snatch push press to OHS is not the same as clean to FS - it would need to be a snatch for that line of reasoning.

2. You don't do OHS for squatting strength. You back squat and front squat. As a strength exercise, the OHS is for overhead strength in the squat, not leg and hip strength. So it doesn't matter if you have a monolift deliver the bar to you - your heaviest OHS weights will never (or should never) come close to what you can FS or BS.

3. It's not strictly a skill exercise - it's more of a somewhat-skill-dependent strength exercise. And skill work is still best with fewer reps.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:03 PM   #1496
Aimee Anaya
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Re: AllisonNYC

Hi Allison-
Okay, so…see my answers in below in CAPS


I'll be sure from now on to continue to make a note when I front squat, press, or OHS from the rack! YOU DON’T NEED TO NOTE WHEN A FRONT SQUAT OR PRESS OR OHS IS TAKEN FROM THE RACK. THEY ARE ASSUMED TO BE TAKEN OFF THE RACK EITHER ON YOUR “RACK POSTION” (FOR THE FRONT SQUAT OR PRESS) OR ON YOUR BACK (FOR THE BACK SQUAT, SN PUSH PRESS, OHS).

I have three questions:

1. Why is it ok to take a front squat from the rack but not an OHS?
THE FRONT SQUAT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN THE OHS. THE FRONT SQUAT IS USED TO STRENGTHEN YOUR LEGS FOR YOUR CLEAN AND THEREFORE YOU WILL NEED TO GO HEAVIER THAN YOUR CLEAN FOR REPS. THIS WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IF YOU WERE CLEANING. YOU WOULD RARELY EVER CLEAN A WEIGHT AND THEN FRONT SQUAT IT UNLESS YOU WERE DOING SOME KIND OF COMBO WORK IN TRAINING LIKE A CLEAN + FRONT SQUAT + JERK. A FRONT SQUAT IS A LEG STRENGTHENING EXERCISE.

EVEN THOUGH THE OHS IS ESSENTIALLY A “SQUAT” IT IS NOT TO BE COMPARED WITH THE FRONT SQUAT OR THE BACK SQUAT. YOU ARE COMPARING A CLEAN TO A FRONT SQUAT, WHICH CAN BE CORRECT BC WE DO FRONT SQUATS TO STRENGTHEN OUR CLEAN, BUT YOU CANT COMPARE AN OHS TO A SQUAT BECAUSE THEY ARE DONE TO STRENGTHEN YOUR SNATCH, AND NOT YOUR LEGS. SEE? IT IS MORE A TECHNICAL SKILL TRANSFER STRENGTHENING EXERCISE THAN A LEG STRENGTHENING EXERCISE. SO OHS’S NEED TO FOLLOW SOMETHING LIKE A MUSCLE SNATCH, A POWER SNATCH, A SNATCH OR A SNATCH PUSH PRESS. SOME WILL SNATCH THE WEIGHT FIRST AND THEN DO 2 -3 OHS, BUT MOST OF THE TIME WE DO A SNATCH PUSH PRESS + AN OHS. THIS BUILDS STRENGTH IN OUR CORE AND IN OUR OVERHEAD POSITION TO PREPARE US TO RECEIVE HEAVY LOADS IN THE SNATCH, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SQUAT.

I take my heavy Front Squats from the rack because I can only clean 155# but can front squat 185# from the rack. And also because that's how I was taught. FRONT SQUATS SHOULD ALWAYS BE TAKEN FROM THE RACK

I figure why should my Front Squat be limited by how much I can clean? By that same logic I'm wondering why my OHS should be determined by how much I can jerk? SEE ANSWER ABOVE. ALSO YOUR OVERHEAD SQUAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR JERK. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUR SNATCH PUSH PRESS, OR WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL A SNATCH JERK, THEN AGAIN… BECAUSE IF YOU ARE TAKING THE BAR ALREADY OVER HEAD IN THE SOLID, STABLE POSITION OF ACTIVE SHOULDERS, THEN YOU ARE LIMITING YOURSELF, AND IT IS ESSENTIALLY ASSISTED. I CAN JERK SUPPORT (HOLD OVER HEAD) 135KG. BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I SAY I JERK 135 KG. BECAUSE FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END OF THE LIFT IS WHAT COUNTS. IN THAT SENSE, FROM THE BEGINNING OF A JERK TO THE END OF A JERK I CAN DO 111KG. SEE? SO EVEN THOUGH I CAN HOLD 135KG OVER HEAD, I AM NOT ABLE TO JERK THAT MUCH. IT IS A LOT EASIER TO HOLD SOMETHING OVER YOUR HEAD AND STAY STABLE THEN GETTING IT OVER YOUR HEAD. IN THIS, YOU ARE NOT DOING A COMPLETE OHS…

What are racks ok for then?! Why are some lifts legit from the rack but not the OHS??
SOME LIFTS ARE LEGIT FOR A RACK BECAUSE WE NEED THE RACKS IN ORDER TO PUT THE BARBELL IN A PLACE WHERE WE CAN START THE EXERCISE… LIKE A BACK SQUAT. AND OHS'S ARE TAKEN FROM THE RACK… ON YOUR BACK, THEN YOU PUSH PRESS IT OVERHEAD, AND THEN YOU OHS IT. JERKS ARE DONE OFF THE RACK JUST TO ISOLATE THE MOVEMENT AND WORK ON THE SKILL OF THE JERK, SEPARATE FROM THE CLEAN. BUT WHAT YOU JERK FROM THE RACK ISN’T NECESSARILY WHAT YOU CAN CLEAN & JERK. IT IS AN ISOLATED EXERCISE. FOR EXAMPLE, I CAN JERK OFF OF THE RACK 111 KG, BUT I CAN ONLY CLEAN & JERK 109KG. BUT I HAVE CLEANED 110KG. SO EVEN THOUGH I HAVE DONE 110 SEPARATELY, I WOULDN’T SAY I CLEAN & JERK 110KG, BECAUSE I HAVEN’T DONE IT FROM BEGINNING (CLEAN) TO END (JERK). DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

2. If I can't take my max OHS and front squats from the rack anymore and I have to clean or jerk them into position then will I still be gaining squatting strength? My front squat and OHS are significantly higher than the lifts I'd need to do to get them into place. How can I do a 1RM that way?? AGAIN, FS IS SEPARATE FROM THE CLEAN. YOU DO FRONT SQUATS JUST LIKE YOU DO BACK SQUATS. YOU DON’T NEED TO CLEAN THEM INTO POSITION. SO WHAT YOU CURRENTLY FRONT SQUAT OFF OF THE RACKS IS LEGIT, JUST AS YOUR BACK SQUAT IS.
HOWEVER, FOR THE OHS, YOU NEED TO PUSH PRESS IT INTO POSITION AND THIS IS HOW YOU GAIN THE STRENGTH FOR THE COMPLETE OHS… FROM BEGINNING TO END. YOU ARE ONLY DOING THE END, WHICH IS WHY YOU ARE ABLE TO DO SO MUCH. AGAIN, IT IS A LOT EASIER TO HOLD SOMETHING OVER HEAD, THEN TO GET IT UP THERE. TO GAIN SQUATTING STRENGTH YOU BACK SQUAT AND FRONT SQUAT. THE OHS IS NOT MEANT FOR BUILDING LEG STRENGTH IT IS FOR BUILDING CORE STABILITY AND OVERHEAD STABILITY AND STRENGTH FOR YOUR SNATCH. THAT IS IT.

It seems like I'd be shorting myself in the FS and OHS because I'd be playing with weights that are cake to lift. THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EXERCISES FOR 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. YOU HAVE TO FORGET ABOUT THE SQUATTING PART OF OHS. YOU ESSENTIALLY OVERHEAD SQUAT WHEN YOU SNATCH AND YOU FRONT SQUAT WHEN YOU CLEAN. BUT YOU DON’T CALL A SNATCH A SQUAT SNATCH OR A SNATCH SQUAT. IT IS JUST A SNATCH. AND A CLEAN IS NOT A SQUAT CLEAN, IT IS JUST A CLEAN. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

3. If the OHS is strictly a skill exercise and not a strength exercise, then why do we do 1, 3 or 5RM OHS?? Why not just always play with light weights? IT IS A STRENGTH BUILDING EXERCISE FOR THE SNATCH. NOT FOR LEG STRENGTH.

I appreciate you weighing in. I've been asking about this for a while now. I'm not really sure why how I'm lifting or how much was such an issue for your friend that she's discussing it with people and even calling you in for reinforcements. Either way I'm happy I'll finally get the answers I've been looking for. BECAUSE I AM A WEIGHTLIFTER AND PEOPLE FEEL CHEATED THAT YOU ARE CLAIMING THIS TO BE A LEGIT OHS, WHEN IN FACT, IT ISN’T (NO OFFENSE)

I'm always anxious to learn more about this stuff since it's all relatively new to me. And all the information I can get from someone like you will only make me a better athlete and trainer. That's all I want.
IT IS BETTER TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU AREN’T AWARE OF THEN ASSUME THAT IT IS OK.

In the end, over head squatting as heavy as I can makes sense to me. Limiting my squats by my pressing strength doesn't. I'm not as concerned with people "counting" my lift as much as I am with getting stronger and fitter. That's why we do this stuff, right???
YES… BUT YOU HAVE TO FORGET THE IDEA THAT YOU ARE DOING OHS TO GET YOUR LEGS STRONGER, BECAUSE YOUR NOT. OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN BACK SQUAT MORE THAN YOU CAN OHS. USE BACK SQUATS AND FRONT SQUATS TO GET STRONGER IN THE SQUAT AND OHS TO GET STRONGER IN YOUR SNATCH.

From my understanding, a front squat starts with the bar on the shoulders and "counts" if it's squatted and stood up. YES
The OHS starts overhead and "counts" when it's squatted and stood up. NO
I didn't know an OHS is actually a snatch jerk (SNATCH PUSH PRESS IS THE CORRECT TERM HERE), OHS. AND, YES

I just haven't been able to come up with a reason that the OHS has it's own set of rules. HOPEFULLY I CLEARED IT UP.

Thanks again, Amiee. I look forward to gaining some clarity on the WHY.

HERE IS A VIDEO OF ME DOING A SNATCH PP + OHS DEMO (WFS): http://www.performancemenu.com/exerc...rheadSquat.mov

HERE IS A TRAINING VIDEO THAT SHOWS ME DOING SNATCH PUSH PRESSES BY THEMSELVES, FOR REPS (WFS):http://www.performancemenu.com/wod/v...ing1-20-09.mov
SO SOMETIMES WE DO SNATCH PUSH PRESSES BY THEMSELVES AND OTHER TIMES WE FOLLOW THEM WITH 1-3 OHS. AGAIN, TO WORK THE SNATCH, AND GET STRONGER FOR THE SNATCH. I CAN SQUAT A BUTTLOAD MORE THAN I CAN OVERHEAD SQUAT. WHY? BECAUSE THEY ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

HOPE THIS CLEARS THINGS UP A BIT… ???
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:31 PM   #1497
Eva Twardokens
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Re: AllisonNYC

"I know who brought this up to you. She took it up with me somewhere else but left me with more questions than anything. I'm sure you'll be able to answer them."

Funny thing is it wasn't me, Aimee sent me an email about the same thing, and I thought it was funny you and I were posting the convo at the same time on FB....Ask Aimee, she emailed me about it.

OOH and please don't associate me with the "gossip mill", I had a legit question about your OHS and I simply addressed it....Aimee did a great job of explaining everything, thanks for your time Aimee, and in the FB nutshell I said close to the same thing. In the end it is your call what is legit or not...good luck, in general your numbers are impressive.

Last edited by Eva Twardokens; 03-07-2009 at 02:39 PM..
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:41 PM   #1498
Jay Ashman
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Re: AllisonNYC

well not to be "that guy" but let's not create unneeded drama for no reason other than to argue about a proper OHS.

Would it be "official" maybe/maybe not, but its still an impressive display of power, skill and balance. Unless she competes in the Games I don't think it should be an issue at all.
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Old 03-07-2009, 07:38 PM   #1499
Allison Bishop
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Re: AllisonNYC

So I've done my last OHS from the rack.

Warm-Up - 500m row

For the hell of it - 15 unbroken OHS with 125# - I jerked it up! I wanted to do more but my wrists were hurting.

Workout:

5 rounds of:
250m row
5 ring dips
(super deep ones. I'm trying to work on my ROM now that I can do them. They're still hard for me)
10 OHS with 95# (all unbroken)
15 pull-ups (tried to stick with the bfly kip but I lose it around the 8 or 10th and naturally switch to my old kip)


I intended on going out for the 5k afterward since the weather was so perfect and I need the running practice. But when we got home I sat down on the couch and the next thing I knew I was waking up 4 hours later. I guess I needed a nap more than a run.
I'd like to make it up tomorrow.


No drama on my end, guys. I appreciate the input from everyone about this stuff.

I'll be putting more time and effort into getting my jerk stronger. Pressing and Jerking have never really been my strengths so I should try to get better at those.

I'll stick with over head squatting for reps with as much as I can jerk from now on!




Thank you again, Amiee for taking the time to explain everything to me. You answered questions that I've been wondering about for a long time. I appreciate the detailed response.
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Old 03-08-2009, 04:33 AM   #1500
Christin Street
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Re: AllisonNYC

Nice job on the Ring Dips, Allison! I still can't do them (but haven't been trying lately). They cause bad pain in my front delt (not tri or chest where i expect it). Any pointers?
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