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Old 11-20-2006, 09:49 PM   #1
Mark Dowst
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The person who wrote this paper in my opinion seems to have a really dated and prejudiced look at mma. It starts off with some really cool perspectives, then it sneaks up on you, bashes bjj and exalts catchwrestling. What do you guys think? I don't mean to troll, but this article hooked me.

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Old 11-21-2006, 10:53 AM   #2
Jeff Gentry
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Hey Mark

I am a big fan of western martial art's ie Catch wrestling, Boxing, being a tall white guy with no asian decent, If someone want's to practice JJ, BJJ, TKD, what ever I have no problem with that, I do think wrestling and alot of Asian Martial art's have gotten very far away from self defense/Warrior art's.

The word Martial art's actualy come's from a western(Greek) phrase Ars Martialas meaning art of Mar's, Mar's being the greek god of war and most people, due to popular media dumbing down thing's and misrepresenting WMA, think there were no sophisticated WMA and they were crude and unskilful compared to AMA(I include BJJ here).

CACC wrestling is still pretty much a lost art and an old art from Europe there are a number of people rediscovering and trying to bring back most of the WMA and this require's alot of myth's be disspelled about the WMA and sometime's people let there passion get the better of them which is what i think happened here.

I cannot say i fully agree with his bashing BJJ or the Gracie's, I did enjoy the article over all though, The Gracie's have done alot to bring "real" fighting and good self defense to the public eye and get people to look at other art's in a more realistic way and discover the value of WMA and disspell alot of the hype around AMA/WMA that has permeated the mind of most people.

There is no one ulitamte martial art as most of us know some are better than other's because they have not been watered down or they are taught by people who realy know the value of training right and training hard, I do not train to build self esteem, self confidence, self discipline, I consider these to be added benefit's of my training not the main point of training which is some of the hype i am refering to.

I spent 6 year's as a US Marine and so my perception of a warrior art/Martial art may be diffrent than most people's so take this with a grain of salt.

heck modern military basic training is realy learning and training in a martial art, it is training to go to war which is literaly what martial art's are, Art's of war.

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Old 11-21-2006, 01:28 PM   #3
Mark Dowst
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I love all submission arts, and I've been working my off to better my game on my feet (striking/wrestling). But anyone who has any real knowledge about the grappling arts knows it's about the quality of the sparring you get. Catch wrestling is a dead art that has been resurected more for profit than anything else. I mean, I know there is Erik Paulson, Josh Barnett, Tony Checcine, Mark Hatmaker and various japanese guys from pro wrestling but where do you think these just got the expirience, techniques, and sparring from. Catch wrestling might be alive in some form in Japan, but it's dead in America.

So with that, when you want to get good submission grappling techniques and sparring where do you go? Because everyone knows that grappling skills are essential to high level mma fighters.

I know that BJJ has some problems, but it still deserves the credit for the wealth of grappling knowledge and athletes it has created. Because when you want to spar with a skilled grappler and are looking for some new techniques even the "Catch Wrestlers" dip into the pool of submission grapplers where over half were trained in BJJ.
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:53 PM   #4
Jeremy Jones
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I found the article hard to read. It made some good points about the origins of sport, but over all it seemed misguided.

(The fact that it was written in 2000 might be why it feels 'outdated').

Catch Wrestling is around in bits and pieces, but I do not know of anyone doing the original thing exclusively. Karl Gotch would be the last person I know of (but I am far from an expert in CACC).

My background: Karl Gotch > Yoshiaki Fujiwara > Bart Vale > Robert Yard / me.
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:36 PM   #5
Mark Dowst
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Cool, I've only had the opportunity to train with one person who has expirience with Catch Wrestling. It has alot of small cool techniques and I have been trying to decipher thier leg attacking strategies. You guys are few and far between.

Really I just call what I do submission grappling, but it would be rude of me not to tell people in grappling that I owe the majority of it to bjj, judo, freestyle, greco, and sambo if they must have the names of the arts I practice.

When I see people saying Catch Wrestling is the art they practice and it alone, I think of the wealth of grappling knowledge and technique they are claiming not to use. (Barnett angers me, but I still root for him)
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:47 AM   #6
Ryan Atkins
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I'm late to the party. Sorry, been busy. Here's what Hal had to say:

Glad to see my essay still has legs, and that the responses have upgraded. I'll respond to some of the comments:

'It's really dated' It's doubly dated, first because I wrote it 6 1/2 years ago, second because I was examining NHB's '94 to '99 history.
'bashing Bjj and Gracies' Nuhn-uh! I pointed to my belief that the 'hip-optimized' athlete - wrestlers, boxers - will surpass the only 'hip-ingenious' like Royce and Royler, for example, Hughes and Genki Sudo squelched/smothered Royce and Royler. Further, Mark Kerr, nobody's idea of a submission grappler, nevertheless went undefeated in Abu Dhabi in his first couple years (did anyone anyone besides Royler do as well or better at that time?). NHB jujus like Brazilian Top Team started studying wrestling, whereas wrestlers like Kerr didn't necessarily 'study' juju, only trained against it. Top fighters like Vanderlei, Crocop, Anderson Silva, don't have the wrestlers' hip-power, but they do have the strikers'. Ingenuity isn't enough in elite freestyle fighting.
I DO take certain Gracies to task for pretentiousness. I tried to refine the 'Gracie bashing' of the time into a study as to how the martial aht's posture taints these brilliant grapplers and leads them to disdain unpretentious fighters and delude themselves. Recent example, Royce claims Hughes won because he executed his gameplan first - implying Hughes was only the tactical lottery winner, not the better fighter.
I defined art in its negative light - artifice - to bring an angle to unarmed combat discussion that wasn't surfacing, and still doesn't come up very well. If someone refers to catch, Greco-Roman, muay Thai, western boxing, et al, as 'art,' we differ only in terminology, not orientation. But mainstream people think of martial art as taekwondokungfukarate, noble, supernatural, invincible...and mainstream MAs and the public still think of fighters as blunt, clumsy, easily defeated brawlers. I wanted to spit back, and hold off the threat that the Ahtist posture would infect and degrade...well, I already went thru all this, and it was a closed case in 2000. None of the current mags include MMA in their title, so I think I'm not alone in wanting to deny kinship to MA.
I'd still like to keep the A-word out of combat athletics, as it is out of non-combat. Artistry is indvidual, and based on deeply-baked fundamentals. Jordan, Federer...hell, Leonardo Da Vinci!...were deep-drill technicians before they became artists. But join a dojo, instant artist! Attend 10 classes without fail, and you get a blue belt, a certificate of attendance pretending to be one of achievement. (I of course exempt Bjj from this sneer campaign). Mainstream MA has more in common with dance (refined partnered moves for grace and fun) and farce-wrestling (simulated, symbolic combat [tho farce-wrestling is nobler for being unpretentious]) than with sport-combat. Granted, artists sincerely pursuing combat efficacy can become good...but if/as they do, they fight ever more like boxers/Thais/wrestlers/submitters; the fu and do techniques recede.
I was plain wrong about catch taking over. I was studying with Cecchine at the time, and I quantum-leaped in successful submissions when I applied Catch to my game. But I focused my final 2 years of training (stopped in '02) on freestyle wrestling, and I and all my students grew far more resistant to finishing holds; plus Bjj evolved, got better...and grappling styles glommed together. Jacare and Garcia are now the very best submitters - jujus and non-wrestlers (but they're not fighters [but Crikey are they good!]). There's some catch out there in Japan; Tony didn't take off like I thought he would, and Furey's stuff never worked, but Takase used carch. Saku's dislocating Renzo was catchish, forearm rotated parallel to Renzo's body, not hand toward headback. Saku also won with a soleus lock against a white guy whose name escapes me. Catch has a more spiral, torqueing dynamic than Bjj or samba, it's somewhat missing but not dead. I think it'll show up more...then again, tho I support the shift to gloves and no headbutts for the sake of the athletes' income, it does degrade the grappling aspect.
Ars Martialis; Right, martial is Mars is war, whereas my focus is one-to-one unarmed fightsport and combat. Nevertheless, I take issue with the A-label with war too. Going from weaponry and surprise-attack ('War Before Civilization,' Lawrence Keeley) to ballistics ('Throwing Fire,' Alfred Crosby), to evolution of fortress geometry ('Fire and Stone,' Christopher Duffy), to a de-humaned, ever more mechanical dynamic ('War in the Age of Intelligent Machines', Manuel de Landa), war is about technology, not art.
...but then, holding to my art as artifice theme, it fits. Yeesh!

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Old 02-01-2007, 04:19 PM   #7
Jake A Shannon
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If anyone has any questions regarding catch, I will do my best to help. I am the Executive Director of Scientific Wrestling and have devoted a lot of time researching it's history.

Obviously Karl Gotch's conditioning program and Crossfit have a lot in common. I've worked out with Karl and just got Crossfit certified a few weeks ago.
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