Charles Poliquin on CrossFit again!

[Oliver Gould]

I see: you don't have an interest in using the criteria YOU OFFERED to reach a conclusion that differs from the one YOU ARE ARGUING. No doubt. It's embarassing to be wrong.

Do you know who our last Heavyweight Olympic lifting champion was? Paul Anderson, in 1956. You know what? His form was, by all accounts, terrible. He was just so insanely strong that it didn't matter.

I've already shown VIDEO of bad deadlift form on a 1003 lb. deadlift. There is NO reason to believe that all max C & J are done with perfect or even good form--to the point, with perfect lordotic arches--or back squats.

Broad Time.

You just aren't whining about that, so it doesn't matter.

I'll ask again: why are you here? What are you trying to accomplish? You are certainly not raising the caliber of the dialogue. Point scoring is a cheap game, particularly if you ignore salient and relevant objections to your case, and refuse to be judged on your own standards.

We have an internet word for that sort of behavior. It begins with T and ends with L.

Modal Domains.

[Michael Henry]

Originally Posted by John Alston

True, not all top lifts are made with “perfect” form but what’s the point of training with that form degradation often? I see the value in gutting a bar up for a world record, or even a local comp, but to encourage that in regular training - I can’t see that being optimal. Yet it seems to be encouraged sometimes.
And I am not sure what point you are making about Paul Anderson. What I take from that is bad form limits performance. His best lifts are outdone today but men much weaker and smaller than him. Is your point that at top lifts form breaks down? Sure, but he form is so relatively primitive anyway. He never had ideal form, and competed in a different era with different rules.
Regarding the 1003 pull you posted – there is more than one way to pull, and when one has prepared one’s back to pull like that it is different than grinding out rep 23 on some random Tuesday night. I think practice is the time to engrain good habits which will make holding good position more possible/likely under challenging circumstances, as well as reduce injury rate.
I will ignore the name calling. And attacks on my “contribution to the dialog” – please, BC you’re ranting. And spouting some verifiable BS (i.e. you’re characterization of *Polliquin as just a bodybuilder is really pretty disingenuous. **

But Benchmark WODs aren't done everyday and your training leads up to them. Isn't the lower rep stuff practice and making you strong to where you can handle the higher rep stuff and have the form breakdown?

On second thought, between what this thread has become and the throwing out our back thread, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore...

[Barry Cooper]

John,

How many affiliates have you trained at? How many WOD's have you done? Are you even a CrossFitter?

MY experience--you know, things I've seen and done, Certs I've attended, dozens of CrossFitters I know personally--is that form breaks are rare.

WE ARE NOT MORONS. We do not use bad form day in day out, and just laugh and say "oh, form slop, ha, ha, ha". That's not what happens, but that's what you are alleging.

Provide empirical evidence or remove yourself from what you evidently still view as a dialogue. And I will repeat: you ARE actually detracting from the intellectual capacities of the people reading you since not everyone is able to readily recognize passionate illogic when they see it. People are taught in our educational system to recognize that there are ALWAYS two valid opinions. Manifestly, that is not always the case.

As far as Poliquin, my issue, very simply, is that he misrepresented what we do. Had it not been posted HERE, on the CrossFit Forum, I never would have known or cared about it. Yet, since it is HERE, and you are defending him HERE, I will continue to respond until the cows come home.

[John Alston]

Originally Posted by Michael Henry

But Benchmark WODs aren't done everyday and your training leads up to them. Isn't the lower rep stuff practice and making you strong to where you can handle the higher rep stuff and have the form breakdown?

I don't think exactly. I think the lower rep higher weight stuff is where you get strength from, first. It's the most important benefit of doing heavy stuff.

[John Alston]

Originally Posted by Barry Cooper

John,
How many affiliates have you trained at? How many WOD's have you done? Are you even a CrossFitter?
MY experience--you know, things I've seen and done, Certs I've attended, dozens of CrossFitters I know personally--is that form breaks are rare.
WE ARE NOT MORONS. We do not use bad form day in day out, and just laugh and say "oh, form slop, ha, ha, ha". That's not what happens, but that's what you are alleging.
Provide empirical evidence or remove yourself from what you evidently still view as a dialogue. And I will repeat: you ARE actually detracting from the intellectual capacities of the people reading you since not everyone is able to readily recognize passionate illogic when they see it. People are taught in our educational system to recognize that there are ALWAYS two valid opinions. Manifestly, that is not always the case.
As far as Poliquin, my issue, very simply, is that he misrepresented what we do. Had it not been posted HERE, on the CrossFit Forum, I never would have known or cared about it. Yet, since it is HERE, and you are defending him HERE, I will continue to respond until the cows come home.

Barry you're the one who first brought up empirical evidence yet has failed to define what counts as and hasn't provided any. Anonymous unverified posts on a website?
Anyway, crossfit slop as a google search produces 60,000+ results. It's an acknowledged issue, people debate it because it occurs repeatedly. Deal with it. Something about scoring points for time makes people want to get those points in. Workouts get "gamed."
My first post on this thread was:
You're joking, right? Where's the data? Studies? I'd like to see something.
You also mis-characterize his argument. It's not "I've never done it so it must be bad" it's more like "Why not test strength conditioning with a less complex movement that doesn't invite such substantial penalty from form break down?"
Also, what studies are you referring to buddy?
I would like to see said studies you referenced. And I thought you mischaracterized CP's argument and his credentials. Ultimately you don't really answer why doing complex movements for strength-endurance is superior to doing simpler ones that have a lower cost when form breaks down.

[Don Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Barry Cooper

John,

How many affiliates have you trained at? How many WOD's have you done? Are you even a CrossFitter?

MY experience--you know, things I've seen and done, Certs I've attended, dozens of CrossFitters I know personally--is that form breaks are rare.

WE ARE NOT MORONS. We do not use bad form day in day out, and just laugh and say "oh, form slop, ha, ha, ha". That's not what happens, but that's what you are alleging.

Provide empirical evidence or remove yourself from what you evidently still view as a dialogue. And I will repeat: you ARE actually detracting from the intellectual capacities of the people reading you since not everyone is able to readily recognize passionate illogic when they see it. People are taught in our educational system to recognize that there are ALWAYS two valid opinions. Manifestly, that is not always the case.

As far as Poliquin, my issue, very simply, is that he misrepresented what we do. Had it not been posted HERE, on the CrossFit Forum, I never would have known or cared about it. Yet, since it is HERE, and you are defending him HERE, I will continue to respond until the cows come home.

The bolded part is interesting when paired with:

Originally Posted by Barry Cooper

Interviewer: Charles, does this emerging fitness protocol which is growing by leaps and bounds concern you?

Charles: Yes, it does. I feel the need to misunderstand it, then criticize it from that basis. Bad, bad; it is very bad. It isn't what I do.

Interviewer: Nuff' Said. Let's move on to some more pictures of roided up bodybuilders. Cue the death metal. How can you not be bada$$ when you listen to Metallica?

Charles: yes, I am much more comfortable dealing with questions of pecdef and abdef. Do you want to talk about nutrition, or supersets?

Anything even remotely "intellectual" was DOA from the very beginning. Sad, really. This could have been a very interesting rebuttal to some of his points, or at least a deeper contemplation on the differences between what he charles P. does and what crossfit does.

I can't help but feel there's a financial motivator behind a lot of this animosity on both ends.

edit: are we really going to get any satisfactory empirical evidence on anything? I'm sure there's numerous people with tons of it on how awesome P90X is but most would brush that off in a hurry.

[Shane Skowron]

Originally Posted by Don Reynolds

I can't help but feel there's a financial motivator

Financial motivators aren't the only thing driving this thread.

I have a serious entertainment interest in the continuation of this ridiculousness.

[Alex Bond]

Originally Posted by Don Reynolds

edit: are we really going to get any satisfactory empirical evidence on anything? I'm sure there's numerous people with tons of it on how awesome P90X is but most would brush that off in a hurry.

Why, people post their results to the mainpage every day as comments! You mean you don't keep a spreadsheet of everyone's posts, tracking their progress in benchmark workouts and comparing their progress to non-Crossfitters and running statistical comparisons to demonstrate that Crossfitters are indeed improving faster than people on other programs? I thought everyone did! After all, that's the empirical evidence we hear so much about which conclusively proves Crossfit's effectiveness.[/SARCASM]

[Barry Cooper]

Ok. So what do we know?

John mentioned the Injury thread in support of his contention that CrossFit causes injuries. When it was pointed out to him some 70,000 WOD's are done weekly, he decided it didn't matter.

After a couple posts, he hits the reset button, and asks me for empirical evidence that CrossFit DOESN'T cause a lot of injuries. Why the hell do I need to provide it to you? I don't give a rat's *** what you believe.

If there were really such a problem, as you mention the rates of comments on Injuries would be through the roof, and most people would, very simply, stop doing CrossFit. Since we continue to sell out 2-3 Certifications every weekend, quite obviously the MARKET has determined what we offer has substantial value. That has apparently not happened with Charles Poliquin.

Again, for the record, I DON'T CARE WHAT HE THINKS. If I wanted his opinion, I would ask him.

Vladimir Zatsiorsky is someone I respect, and he says that you can increase maximal maximorum strength through the Repetitive Effort method, as well as Maximal strength training.

You keep asking me to prove something I don't have to prove, and you keep refusing to make even a rudimentary effort to document the frankly insulting and inflammatory claim that CrossFit's main coaches and trainers are hiding massive quantities of injuries.

What makes you think it's acceptable to call people liars here, and refuse to man up and provide even a shred of evidence? It's all on you, son. I don't need to back up a damn thing, since my own experience, and that of 99% of the readers here is in full congruence with the position that what injuries we have are due to going too hard too long, and are fully preventable by not being a hard charging type A personality.

[Barry Cooper]

BTW, Don: nice cherry-picking. I have made my points clearly. If you lack the attention span to read the thread, or the intellectual capacity to understand them, then you apparently have company.