Max to Relax

Barry Cooper · 05-26-2006, 02:07 PM

This thread also could have been titled "Is CrossFit a pain in the ass?" I felt that unseemly as a title, though.

A thought that occurred to me some time ago, that I tested today, was at the end of the WOD to not just lay on the ground until I caught my breath, but to go immediately into some sort of formal relaxation. I have dabbled more than a little in both Jacobsen's Progressive Relaxation, and Schultz' Autogenic Relaxation. Both work, and so do others.

My thought was to go immediately, as quickly as possible, from a state of what we might term tension--certainly maximal effort--to a state of relaxation, minimal effort. This would define neatly two ends, roughly, of a continuum we inhabit daily, between stress and relaxation. If the body/mind is autoregulating properly, it ought to settle at the appropriate level, provided it understands the options open to it. We ought to be able to be only as stressed as we need to be to be effective, and no more. We ought, as well, to be able to ratchet up as needed to maximal stress, like combat, or chasing a suspect.

Not infrequently, I get sleepy after a WOD, for 20 minutes or so, and today I just laid down for 10 minutes and tried to relax every muscle in my body. Everyone thinks I'm weird anyway, so I'm losing nothing. I felt it worked well.

Yesterday I read a study where they followed up with two groups of people who had colonoscopy's done. One group, the second they were done, they pulled the thing out. The second group, after they were done moving it around--which is apparently the painful part--they just left it still for a minute, which still hurts, but not as much as when you're moving it. Surprisingly, the group for whom the procedure lasted LONGER were less negative about it, and more likely to repeat it. The reason, the researchers concluded, was that what the patients remembered most was not the WORST part of it, but the END (no puns please, this is a sensitive topic, and no one wants to be the butt of a joke) of it. The principle of recency.

CrossFit tends to drop a lot of people. My concept, obviously, is to end every session like they end yoga sessions, with relaxation. You could frame it as a guided visualization of doing what they just did better, or hitting some fitness goal, or whatever they want.

It would be particularly interesting to see if you can learn to drop your heartrate faster with practice. This would be directly relevant to some workouts, like Barbara, but also more generally as a beginning of self-regulation.

I tend towards mild monomania, and one interest of mine is biathlon. It has always interested me how you go max, then relax to shoot, then go max again. This sport arose directly from military training, and they used to use much bigger calibers, in the .3030 range.

It also occurred to me that you could use exercise, say thrusters, to mimic stress, then do something--like shooting--that would stressful in real life (i.e. if you were shooting at an enemy). John Hackleman talked about how Chuck Liddell and others do thrusters or rows, then jump IMMEDIATELY into the ring to wrestle. That's a great idea, in my view.

My two cents worth. I had to post it to get it out of my brain.

Russ Greene · 05-26-2006, 03:51 PM

This is a good idea. Relaxing after a workout is one of the best feelings in the world. Here at Crossfit Monterey we don't meditate, yet, but we do have barbeques after our workouts occasionally.

Mike Minium · 05-26-2006, 08:09 PM

Russ,

Who's the source for that quote of yours?

(Barry, sorry, not trying to hijack your thread.)

Thanks,

Mike

Rene Renteria · 05-26-2006, 09:33 PM

I think it was Mark Twight who posted some time ago about testing the effect of rest position on heart rate, finding that lying down on the floor in between rounds of whatever led to better, faster recovery than, say, standing up or walking around. The idea was that it's easier for the heart to pump your blood when you're lying down. (Counter ideas would be that your muscle movements help move blood through the veins, which would lead to faster clearance of waste products and thus faster recovery.)

It would be particularly interesting to see if you can learn to drop your heartrate faster with practice. This would be directly relevant to some workouts, like Barbara, but also more generally as a beginning of self-regulation.

This might be hard to separate from the other, good benefits of anaerobic training, such as lactate tolerance, clearance, or buffering, which presumably the "practice" (working out) improves. Someone must have studied the optimal way to breathe (fast and shallow, deep and hold, forced exhale to increase PO2?) to get your heartrate (or lactate level or whatever measure) back to some lower value.

Not the same as relaxation, I suppose. That implies the conscious control of what are normally autonomic functions. Just saying that it might be that your relaxation technique of being still and lying down might be the least taxing to your system, which leads to faster return to normal, independent of the mental aspects of it.

Have you found that you can control your autonomic responses? To what degree? Did you try biofeedback?

Interesting idea.
Best,
Rene'

Russ Greene · 05-27-2006, 12:01 AM

Mike, I wrote it. Now that I look back there are a few things I should change in order to better convey my ideas.

Garrett Smith · 05-27-2006, 02:49 PM

Want to learn how to control your autonomic functioning? Talk to Vladimir Stefanishin at www.proself.com . He teaches a technique called Progressive Self Regulation. I've seen guys max out on pushups, only to beat their max five minutes later, then to beat it again five minutes after that (this was a complete newbie to the technique, they worked on testosterone release between sets, high school kid at Jay Schroeder's place, I watched it). I did one session, found out I'm just OK at getting into the proper state (certain people are better at it, similar to hypnosis). I need to do another session to renew my skills and get better, too bad he lives in Glendale.

Vladimir has stories of people going in to their doctors and seriously messing with their heads by rapidly, consciously changing their HR and BP from normal to highly abnormal.

Anyway, check it out. Tell him I sent you!

Norm Rager · 05-27-2006, 11:01 PM

Barry,

In my short time here, you've always had some very thought provoking ideas and viewpoints on so many issues - thank you for that!

Somehow measuring or at least noticing performance at both ends of this spectrum simulaneously within one WOD would be/is a facinating proposition. I have a feeling that one may need to practice each individually first in order to put them together most efficiently in the future. It takes (for me) a certain 'something extra' to intently focus on both max exertion, and relaxation. Strangely, relaxation is much more difficult, but probably at least as important in order to clear the channels to begin another round of exertion or some other stimulus-rich activity.

To this end, I'm beginning to incorporate more 'accuracy-based' activity into WODs, especially those that involve multiple rounds.

For Example:

"Michael"

Three rounds for time of:
Run 800 meters
50 Back Extensions
50 Sit-ups
3 Arrows into 20yd target in 30sec - 10 rep penalty in next round for every 10 sec over.
-or- 30ft slack-line walk in 30 sec, same penalty

Luckily, I have 3 acres to work with at home, and I think very much out-of-the-box! Not quite biathlon (I do have neighbors), but it does force you to ramp-down a bit to perform. BTW, if I built a berm to conform to county regs., I could create a firing range - fancy that!:happy:

I've recently started my CrossFit Affiliation here in Grass Vally, Ca. (CrossFit Sierra) and am begining to put these into practice (beta testing on myself at present)- don't tell my insurance co.

Garrett - autonomic self-regulation is great fun - but only during routine check-ups. BP is the easiest. An 'open-eye' visualization works best for me. If you can picture what someone looks like in a trance-like state (eyes open, staring into space) that's it. The more you practice, the quicker you can do it. Everyone's visualization is different. The degree of change is difficult to alter. BP is a different story - elevation is very trainable, depression is difficult. The only thing that works for me (limited by conditioning level) is to feel your HR, literally, in your body, and then create a slightly slower cadence in your mind - then focus on matching them. Funny thing is that I never knew there was any formal 'techniques' being taught out there - guess I'm not surprised - you can go to a web-site and buy a DVD for anything these days!

Garrett Smith · 05-28-2006, 06:14 AM

Norm,
Those two examples only scratch the surface of what Vladimir's techniques can do. My main concern, not really a concern though, with Vladimir's technique, is that he isn't willing or doesn't know how to teach it to others--which means his version will die with him. Learning how to do these things in 15-30 minutes with him is amazing.

Barry Cooper · 05-28-2006, 01:34 PM

I was busy there a couple of days, but I'm glad some of you liked the idea.

The basic concept is really nothing more or less than increasing client retention by making the part they remember best more pleasant. At the same time, my concept is to take advantage of what might be called a pendulum effect. Your heartrate is at its' maximum (in most workouts), and will start dropping when you lay down, so you will get a result there by doing absolutely nothing but breathing. My experience is that I can slow my heart and breathing down fastest by taking breaths that are as long and big as I can. I am consciously calming myself down, like when someone says "breath" when you are freaking out about something. Same thing, physiologically--or close, anyway--to many other stressors. Therefore, it seemed to me that since we are already at max, it might be a fun and productive time to work the relaxation. You likely won't go as far as you would in a quiet, relaxed environment, but farther than you would have if you hadn't thought about it and tried.

I took a class on Biofeedback and self-regulation in college, and did some things, like cool my forehead, but did not have sufficient access to the equipment to do anything really fun. It also concerned me that my instructor had all the excitement of someone who received a full-body botox injection.

Still, I learned about the basic approaches, and yes, it likely would be better to train this stuff separately. That may not be possible, though. We, as individual CrossFitters, many of whom work out in our own gyms, obviously can,but those with clients will have more of an issue.

The basic program most Yoga teachers use is along the lines of tense your feet, relax your foot. Lift your leg, relax your leg, etc. Go to a decent yoga class and copy their script. It must be in books, too.

Jacobsen's Progressive Relaxation is a program where you essentially learn your own anatomy in detail by learning to selectively tense every muscle in your body. In one session you just learn to tense various muscles. In another, you focus on relaxing those same muscles, whose predominant tonus is more available to your consciousness as a result of your concentrating on them. It's a good system.

The other system which interested me was Autogenics, which is the one where you visualize your arms and legs as warm and heavy, your forehead cool, your breathing calm, your heartbeat steady, and something I'm forgetting. It's a sophisticated clinical system, which could, in my view, be exchanged tomorrow for every clinical psychology session in the world tomorrow, with the results strongly positive in 90% of the cases. The book Superlearning has a good description of it. The primary texts are hard to find and expensive. According to Wikipedia they were republished in 2001, but I can't find a full set. You heard it here first: we will see a revival of Autogenics within ten years. I had Pilates pegged back in 1994, and Swiss Balls too, so I have a pretty good track record. Hell, I'm here now.

I will state as well, that in my view a combination of CrossFit and formal Autogenic training--possibly with a session or two of cognitive therapy--would accomplish MORE than any single therapeutic modality out there, for all but frank organic disturbances. I have reasons for saying this I don't have time to go in to here.

As far as accuracy, it did occur to me some time ago that you could have barrel, and toss tennis balls in it, or throw them at a target. You could get an accurate paintball gun, and shoot something. You could even get plastic bullets, but that would obviously require GREAT caution. But you could mimic the end of a chase, or great stress combined with the need for accuracy.

Russ, I can relate to that quote. It got me to thinking, and as I see it, there are three principle drivers to creativity:

1) Mania

2) Play

3) Directed activity.

Mania is your classic creative type. Someone driven to create, compelled by whatever to think new thoughts, paint/write/sculpt/compose something no one has experienced before. In my view, it can be directed towards the betterment of humankind, but is not necessarily so. This is the type of creativity that hurts. I think I am reasonably creative, and I can tell you I feel like I am being thrown against brick walls over and over sometimes. Then I get ****ed, and I start throwing myself against the wall, over and over, and what invariably happens, is I start to see daylight, and whatever it was I was trying to pull into consciousness, comes. It takes a certain personality to do that, though. You have to be a little nuts. But very little that is drastically new is created by reasonable people. You're freaking alone.

Play is obvious. Jamming with your buddies on a Saturday night. Humor also fits in here. If you are relaxed and open, new things can come your way.

Directed activity is intentional, planned creativity, like engineers solving problems, or ad execs coming up with campaigns (although mania will pop up there often), or construction workers figuring out how to accomplish jobs without the right people or materials. My uncle always said: "If it's dumb but it works, it isn't dumb." Words to live by. Those and "far better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission."

(Message edited by barry cooper on May 28, 2006)

Kenneth R Davis · 05-28-2006, 03:57 PM

Mike Minium,

If you like Russ' prose, you might be intersted in Goethe's Faust Act 1 (In the Study) There, Faust makes a bargin with the devil, saying, very poetically, If he ever comes to a moment that is so perfect that he no longer wants to improve, then Mephistopheles (the Devil) can take his soul.

It's one of the things I memorzied when learning German. I won't try to translate it, but you might want to check out the English translation next time you're at Barnes and Noble. I think about it frequently: Always striving to improve. Great stuff!

05-26-2006, 02:07 PM	#1
Barry Cooper Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 2,188	This thread also could have been titled "Is CrossFit a pain in the ass?" I felt that unseemly as a title, though. A thought that occurred to me some time ago, that I tested today, was at the end of the WOD to not just lay on the ground until I caught my breath, but to go immediately into some sort of formal relaxation. I have dabbled more than a little in both Jacobsen's Progressive Relaxation, and Schultz' Autogenic Relaxation. Both work, and so do others. My thought was to go immediately, as quickly as possible, from a state of what we might term tension--certainly maximal effort--to a state of relaxation, minimal effort. This would define neatly two ends, roughly, of a continuum we inhabit daily, between stress and relaxation. If the body/mind is autoregulating properly, it ought to settle at the appropriate level, provided it understands the options open to it. We ought to be able to be only as stressed as we need to be to be effective, and no more. We ought, as well, to be able to ratchet up as needed to maximal stress, like combat, or chasing a suspect. Not infrequently, I get sleepy after a WOD, for 20 minutes or so, and today I just laid down for 10 minutes and tried to relax every muscle in my body. Everyone thinks I'm weird anyway, so I'm losing nothing. I felt it worked well. Yesterday I read a study where they followed up with two groups of people who had colonoscopy's done. One group, the second they were done, they pulled the thing out. The second group, after they were done moving it around--which is apparently the painful part--they just left it still for a minute, which still hurts, but not as much as when you're moving it. Surprisingly, the group for whom the procedure lasted LONGER were less negative about it, and more likely to repeat it. The reason, the researchers concluded, was that what the patients remembered most was not the WORST part of it, but the END (no puns please, this is a sensitive topic, and no one wants to be the butt of a joke) of it. The principle of recency. CrossFit tends to drop a lot of people. My concept, obviously, is to end every session like they end yoga sessions, with relaxation. You could frame it as a guided visualization of doing what they just did better, or hitting some fitness goal, or whatever they want. It would be particularly interesting to see if you can learn to drop your heartrate faster with practice. This would be directly relevant to some workouts, like Barbara, but also more generally as a beginning of self-regulation. I tend towards mild monomania, and one interest of mine is biathlon. It has always interested me how you go max, then relax to shoot, then go max again. This sport arose directly from military training, and they used to use much bigger calibers, in the .3030 range. It also occurred to me that you could use exercise, say thrusters, to mimic stress, then do something--like shooting--that would stressful in real life (i.e. if you were shooting at an enemy). John Hackleman talked about how Chuck Liddell and others do thrusters or rows, then jump IMMEDIATELY into the ring to wrestle. That's a great idea, in my view. My two cents worth. I had to post it to get it out of my brain.

05-26-2006, 03:51 PM	#2
Russ Greene Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 637	This is a good idea. Relaxing after a workout is one of the best feelings in the world. Here at Crossfit Monterey we don't meditate, yet, but we do have barbeques after our workouts occasionally.

05-26-2006, 08:09 PM	#3
Mike Minium Member Profile: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oakland CA Posts: 860	Russ, Who's the source for that quote of yours? (Barry, sorry, not trying to hijack your thread.) Thanks, Mike

05-26-2006, 09:33 PM	#4
Rene Renteria Member Profile: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 364	I think it was Mark Twight who posted some time ago about testing the effect of rest position on heart rate, finding that lying down on the floor in between rounds of whatever led to better, faster recovery than, say, standing up or walking around. The idea was that it's easier for the heart to pump your blood when you're lying down. (Counter ideas would be that your muscle movements help move blood through the veins, which would lead to faster clearance of waste products and thus faster recovery.) It would be particularly interesting to see if you can learn to drop your heartrate faster with practice. This would be directly relevant to some workouts, like Barbara, but also more generally as a beginning of self-regulation. This might be hard to separate from the other, good benefits of anaerobic training, such as lactate tolerance, clearance, or buffering, which presumably the "practice" (working out) improves. Someone must have studied the optimal way to breathe (fast and shallow, deep and hold, forced exhale to increase PO2?) to get your heartrate (or lactate level or whatever measure) back to some lower value. Not the same as relaxation, I suppose. That implies the conscious control of what are normally autonomic functions. Just saying that it might be that your relaxation technique of being still and lying down might be the least taxing to your system, which leads to faster return to normal, independent of the mental aspects of it. Have you found that you can control your autonomic responses? To what degree? Did you try biofeedback? Interesting idea. Best, Rene'

05-27-2006, 12:01 AM	#5
Russ Greene Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 637	Mike, I wrote it. Now that I look back there are a few things I should change in order to better convey my ideas.

05-27-2006, 02:49 PM	#6
Garrett Smith Member Profile: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,264	Want to learn how to control your autonomic functioning? Talk to Vladimir Stefanishin at www.proself.com . He teaches a technique called Progressive Self Regulation. I've seen guys max out on pushups, only to beat their max five minutes later, then to beat it again five minutes after that (this was a complete newbie to the technique, they worked on testosterone release between sets, high school kid at Jay Schroeder's place, I watched it). I did one session, found out I'm just OK at getting into the proper state (certain people are better at it, similar to hypnosis). I need to do another session to renew my skills and get better, too bad he lives in Glendale. Vladimir has stories of people going in to their doctors and seriously messing with their heads by rapidly, consciously changing their HR and BP from normal to highly abnormal. Anyway, check it out. Tell him I sent you!

05-27-2006, 11:01 PM	#7
Norm Rager Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Grass Valley/Nevada City Ca Posts: 86	Barry, In my short time here, you've always had some very thought provoking ideas and viewpoints on so many issues - thank you for that! Somehow measuring or at least noticing performance at both ends of this spectrum simulaneously within one WOD would be/is a facinating proposition. I have a feeling that one may need to practice each individually first in order to put them together most efficiently in the future. It takes (for me) a certain 'something extra' to intently focus on both max exertion, and relaxation. Strangely, relaxation is much more difficult, but probably at least as important in order to clear the channels to begin another round of exertion or some other stimulus-rich activity. To this end, I'm beginning to incorporate more 'accuracy-based' activity into WODs, especially those that involve multiple rounds. For Example: "Michael" Three rounds for time of: Run 800 meters 50 Back Extensions 50 Sit-ups 3 Arrows into 20yd target in 30sec - 10 rep penalty in next round for every 10 sec over. -or- 30ft slack-line walk in 30 sec, same penalty Luckily, I have 3 acres to work with at home, and I think very much out-of-the-box! Not quite biathlon (I do have neighbors), but it does force you to ramp-down a bit to perform. BTW, if I built a berm to conform to county regs., I could create a firing range - fancy that!:happy: I've recently started my CrossFit Affiliation here in Grass Vally, Ca. (CrossFit Sierra) and am begining to put these into practice (beta testing on myself at present)- don't tell my insurance co. Garrett - autonomic self-regulation is great fun - but only during routine check-ups. BP is the easiest. An 'open-eye' visualization works best for me. If you can picture what someone looks like in a trance-like state (eyes open, staring into space) that's it. The more you practice, the quicker you can do it. Everyone's visualization is different. The degree of change is difficult to alter. BP is a different story - elevation is very trainable, depression is difficult. The only thing that works for me (limited by conditioning level) is to feel your HR, literally, in your body, and then create a slightly slower cadence in your mind - then focus on matching them. Funny thing is that I never knew there was any formal 'techniques' being taught out there - guess I'm not surprised - you can go to a web-site and buy a DVD for anything these days!

05-28-2006, 06:14 AM	#8
Garrett Smith Member Profile: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,264	Norm, Those two examples only scratch the surface of what Vladimir's techniques can do. My main concern, not really a concern though, with Vladimir's technique, is that he isn't willing or doesn't know how to teach it to others--which means his version will die with him. Learning how to do these things in 15-30 minutes with him is amazing.

05-28-2006, 01:34 PM	#9
Barry Cooper Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 2,188	I was busy there a couple of days, but I'm glad some of you liked the idea. The basic concept is really nothing more or less than increasing client retention by making the part they remember best more pleasant. At the same time, my concept is to take advantage of what might be called a pendulum effect. Your heartrate is at its' maximum (in most workouts), and will start dropping when you lay down, so you will get a result there by doing absolutely nothing but breathing. My experience is that I can slow my heart and breathing down fastest by taking breaths that are as long and big as I can. I am consciously calming myself down, like when someone says "breath" when you are freaking out about something. Same thing, physiologically--or close, anyway--to many other stressors. Therefore, it seemed to me that since we are already at max, it might be a fun and productive time to work the relaxation. You likely won't go as far as you would in a quiet, relaxed environment, but farther than you would have if you hadn't thought about it and tried. I took a class on Biofeedback and self-regulation in college, and did some things, like cool my forehead, but did not have sufficient access to the equipment to do anything really fun. It also concerned me that my instructor had all the excitement of someone who received a full-body botox injection. Still, I learned about the basic approaches, and yes, it likely would be better to train this stuff separately. That may not be possible, though. We, as individual CrossFitters, many of whom work out in our own gyms, obviously can,but those with clients will have more of an issue. The basic program most Yoga teachers use is along the lines of tense your feet, relax your foot. Lift your leg, relax your leg, etc. Go to a decent yoga class and copy their script. It must be in books, too. Jacobsen's Progressive Relaxation is a program where you essentially learn your own anatomy in detail by learning to selectively tense every muscle in your body. In one session you just learn to tense various muscles. In another, you focus on relaxing those same muscles, whose predominant tonus is more available to your consciousness as a result of your concentrating on them. It's a good system. The other system which interested me was Autogenics, which is the one where you visualize your arms and legs as warm and heavy, your forehead cool, your breathing calm, your heartbeat steady, and something I'm forgetting. It's a sophisticated clinical system, which could, in my view, be exchanged tomorrow for every clinical psychology session in the world tomorrow, with the results strongly positive in 90% of the cases. The book Superlearning has a good description of it. The primary texts are hard to find and expensive. According to Wikipedia they were republished in 2001, but I can't find a full set. You heard it here first: we will see a revival of Autogenics within ten years. I had Pilates pegged back in 1994, and Swiss Balls too, so I have a pretty good track record. Hell, I'm here now. I will state as well, that in my view a combination of CrossFit and formal Autogenic training--possibly with a session or two of cognitive therapy--would accomplish MORE than any single therapeutic modality out there, for all but frank organic disturbances. I have reasons for saying this I don't have time to go in to here. As far as accuracy, it did occur to me some time ago that you could have barrel, and toss tennis balls in it, or throw them at a target. You could get an accurate paintball gun, and shoot something. You could even get plastic bullets, but that would obviously require GREAT caution. But you could mimic the end of a chase, or great stress combined with the need for accuracy. Russ, I can relate to that quote. It got me to thinking, and as I see it, there are three principle drivers to creativity: 1) Mania 2) Play 3) Directed activity. Mania is your classic creative type. Someone driven to create, compelled by whatever to think new thoughts, paint/write/sculpt/compose something no one has experienced before. In my view, it can be directed towards the betterment of humankind, but is not necessarily so. This is the type of creativity that hurts. I think I am reasonably creative, and I can tell you I feel like I am being thrown against brick walls over and over sometimes. Then I get ****ed, and I start throwing myself against the wall, over and over, and what invariably happens, is I start to see daylight, and whatever it was I was trying to pull into consciousness, comes. It takes a certain personality to do that, though. You have to be a little nuts. But very little that is drastically new is created by reasonable people. You're freaking alone. Play is obvious. Jamming with your buddies on a Saturday night. Humor also fits in here. If you are relaxed and open, new things can come your way. Directed activity is intentional, planned creativity, like engineers solving problems, or ad execs coming up with campaigns (although mania will pop up there often), or construction workers figuring out how to accomplish jobs without the right people or materials. My uncle always said: "If it's dumb but it works, it isn't dumb." Words to live by. Those and "far better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission." (Message edited by barry cooper on May 28, 2006)

05-28-2006, 03:57 PM	#10
Kenneth R Davis Member Profile: Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: San Antonio Tx Posts: 132	Mike Minium, If you like Russ' prose, you might be intersted in Goethe's Faust Act 1 (In the Study) There, Faust makes a bargin with the devil, saying, very poetically, If he ever comes to a moment that is so perfect that he no longer wants to improve, then Mephistopheles (the Devil) can take his soul. It's one of the things I memorzied when learning German. I won't try to translate it, but you might want to check out the English translation next time you're at Barnes and Noble. I think about it frequently: Always striving to improve. Great stuff!