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-   -   Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study" (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=70127)

Mark Davis 09-10-2011 10:31 AM

Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
So I just watched the Forks Over Knives documentary, which is party based on the China Study book. I have not read the China Study in full, but have read through parts, and will read through it cover to cover once I have a little more time. I am not Paleo at the time, but eat a healthy zone diet (I might give Paleo a try a little down the road). So I have always been really interested in the field of nutrition and am constantly researching new studies and information on the topic. So I must say that the documentary does have a lot of good info and really gets one thinking, but like anything out there I think the way the data is interpreted needs to be "taken with a grain of salt." So with that I am curious as to what others think of the documentary if you have seen it and or The China Study?

Rebecca Roth 09-10-2011 01:34 PM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Davis (Post 984054)
So I just watched the Forks Over Knives documentary, which is party based on the China Study book. I have not read the China Study in full, but have read through parts, and will read through it cover to cover once I have a little more time. I am not Paleo at the time, but eat a healthy zone diet (I might give Paleo a try a little down the road). So I have always been really interested in the field of nutrition and am constantly researching new studies and information on the topic. So I must say that the documentary does have a lot of good info and really gets one thinking, but like anything out there I think the way the data is interpreted needs to be "taken with a grain of salt." So with that I am curious as to what others think of the documentary if you have seen it and or The China Study?

The china study has been pretty thoroughly and completely proven at worst completely false, and at best simply a terrible practice of research methods.

Denise Minger (former raw vegan, now paleo-ite) actually wrote the following detailed analysis, only to receive a rebuttal from the author of the china study himself... which largely questioned her credentials to have written such a criticism and did little to actually validate the study. http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/ (wfs)

http://www.foodrenegade.com/the-chin...y-discredited/
http://freetheanimal.com/2010/07/t-c...scredited.html
http://www.healthiertalk.com/greates...l-history-1385

Mark Davis 09-11-2011 05:01 PM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Thanks for the links. This is the type of dissection I am on the quest for. I am going to read through them over the next day or two. The way they present the information regarding the studies in the documentary seems pretty straight forward and one sided, that is why I was a little bit skeptical, but at the same time I wasn't going to rule the information out. I want to stay as objective as I can and look at all the information available. Like I said I have not read through your links yet or the entire book yet, but the studies do seem pretty complex and the data could be interpreted multiple ways. Anyone else with any opinions or thoughts; good or bad?

Todd R Bailey 09-12-2011 06:28 AM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Here is a copy of a debate between Loren Cordain and Campbell regarding protein consumption.

http://crossfitcda.com/wp-content/up...teinDebate.pdf (wfs)

John C Corona 09-12-2011 12:30 PM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Due to your interest in nutrition, I think its important you read the book, period. I think his studies with rats was very interesting. I love his attempt at a large scale data collection regarding the chinese diet & nutrition (on cover = most comprehensive study on nutrition ever conducted). And the book ends off speaking of the politics involved with his own medical profession. I feel all 3 sections have some 'meat' worth reading. By the end of the book, you might be tired of hearing "plant-based diet cure everything", but hey, the guy believes and is passionate.

Its wise to question everything. Probably not that wise to think there's one diet that will clear us from all diseases. Hence, "im a vegetarian who only eats fish", or "Im paleo but I do dairy". Also, how cool is it that Campbell provides the sources and the data, so Denise can analyze it herself, regardless of opposite conclusions.

Remember, you are asking a meat lovers forum about a vegetarian sided book, so guess what most responses will be like? What responses would you get if you were on a vegetarian forum? Campbell and Ornish have had great success helping patients turn around disease thur these plant based diets. So Campbell pushes whole grains & beans over the animal meat (vice versa for paleo). Whats in common is "no processed crap"...but then again, many live to their 90's smokin n drinkin n being merry, etc...so whatever. Thanks for the links above yall...

Sheldon Kreger 09-12-2011 03:46 PM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
I'm a vegetarian CF'r. I haven't read the China Study, but I do know that I feel best on a high fat, high protein diet. I eat lots of coconut oil, hemp oil, fish oil (the only non-vegetarian cheat), and butter. I also eat lots of eggs (usually 4 per day - with yolks).

For protein, I have been eating a lot of hemp protein, eggs, peanut butter, almond butter, and also whey powder. Quinoa is a staple in my diet.

I am lactose intolerant and don't eat dairy products for ethical reasons anyway. However, adding the whey protein has helped me substantially, so I've kept it (they make low lactose whey products). I would like to phase this out eventually, but I don't have a good alternative for now.

Essentially, I will eat large quantities of extremely ripe fruit all morning, and then a hemp or whey protein smoothie pre-workout, along with some oil. Lunch is quinoa with lots of oil and steamed vegetables, plus peanut butter. Dinner is either pasta with lots of butter or eggs with lots of butter. Also, steamed vegetables with lots of butter.

Before upping the fat and protein intake, I was having problems maintaining focus and energy levels and feeling hungry all the time. I really can't emphasize the importance of high fat (including saturated) and high protein in my diet.

I am getting consistent strength gains using CFFB off season amateur training.

You will not find many vegetarian supporters here, so feel free to PM me if you have questions.

-sheldon

Nick Haislip 09-13-2011 06:51 AM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheldon Kreger (Post 984680)
You will not find many vegetarian supporters here
-sheldon

Actually, I think you will find that most people would support a vegetarian/vegan diet as long as the vegetarian/vegan doesn't try to come across as morally superior and condescending towards people that eat meat.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheldon Kreger (Post 984680)
fish oil (the only non-vegetarian cheat), and butter. I also eat lots of eggs (usually 4 per day - with yolks).

I am lactose intolerant and don't eat dairy products for ethical reasons anyway. You will not find many vegetarian supporters here, so feel free to PM me if you have questions.

-sheldon

You don't eat dairy products for ethical reasons and yet you eat butter? I'm not trying to call you out here really, eat whatever makes you happy and feel good, this part just confuses me.

adam adkins 09-13-2011 07:55 AM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheldon Kreger (Post 984680)
I'm a vegetarian CF'r.

For protein, I have been eating a lot of ...whey powder.

I am lactose intolerant and don't eat dairy products for ethical reasons anyway. However, adding the whey protein has helped me substantially, so I've kept it (they make low lactose whey products). I would like to phase this out eventually, but I don't have a good alternative for now.

Dinner is either pasta with lots of butter or eggs with lots of butter. Also, steamed vegetables with lots of butter.

-sheldon

No offense but this post perfectly illustrates the logical inconsistencies of a vegetarian diet.

Many vegetarians start with the "ethical reasons" premise. Take dairy for instance, although you admit you take whey and eat butter you say you don't eat dairy for ethical reasons. The logic flows that the forced pregnancy and industrial treatment of the dairy cow is unethical and therefore you oppose eating dairy on ethical grounds. But the logic assumes that the only dairy available is produced by industrial means and that is simply not true.

Would you or do you have the same objections to dairy produced with pastured cows in a natural reproductive state? If so, why?

As with most instances with the vegan or vegetarian argument, I don't disagree with the premise, I just disagree with the conclusion. If you want to protest the industrialization of the food supply and the unethical treatment of animals, then I agree, don't consume those products. But what is wrong with those not produced by those methods and the animals who are treated with care?

Rebecca Roth 09-13-2011 08:10 AM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
As far as the comment that "You will not find many vegetarian supporters here" I'm kind of disappointed to see that from you Sheldon, while there was certainly a vocal minority, the vast majority of those who posted in response to your earlier threads merely voiced concerns (from past experience) that you might find yourself unable to support training on a vegetarian diet, thats not a criticism or antagonism, its a simple fact of having seen the vast majority of vegetarian/vegans struggle to recover and either quit the diet or quit crossfit. Given that you eat eggs, you are somewhat less restricted than traditional vegetarians and is likely part of the key to your success, but Whatever works for you best is important and it was clear standard meat eating was also not in the best interests of your training either considering your physical response to it.

Bill M. Hesse 09-13-2011 11:16 AM

Re: Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study"
 
Yum, eggs. I support my training with 6-8 unborn souls a day!

But seriously I think that legit animal farmers aren't doing much the rest of the natural isn't doing worse i.e. lion chasing down and animal and ripping it's throat out then gutting it as it breathes it's final breath. I do not support corporate industrial farming, but I do think man kind has thrived due to our ability to eat legumes, grains, animals, veggies etc. Farmers that hose down their soil with industrial chemicals are no more superior to ones that slaughter their confined animals wholesale. Thinking you are saving the world by eating grain instead of another being is foolish. Eating animals is a part of human biology and something we are going to do in the natural world if we still hunted and gathered / weren't exposed to conditions we are forced to bear witness to and let our emotions get in the way of sound decision making. *exits soap box*

Hooray for bacon!


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