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Jenika Gordon
08-21-2006, 06:49 PM
I have an interesting issue here. I just got a new client and she cannot digest fat among other things. The doctors do not know what exactly is wrong with her, but anytime she eats fat or sugar etc her body reacts and she gets nausia or sore joints. She has developed osteoporosis and weighs only 100lbs. One doctor told her that her blood can;t produce any energy, hence she can't digest food. I would love to get her on the zone, since it would help her improve bone density, etc, however she cannot digest fat. She can digest us to 2 grams of fat at one meal other than that she gets very sick. Does anyone have any suggestions in regard to her nutrition? Or has anyone heard of this before?

Guest
08-21-2006, 07:29 PM
not sure what that doc means by the blood can't produce energy...

do supplemental digestive enzymes help?

if she really can't get any more fat than that, i would use up the quota with pharm-grade fish oil and try to meet caloric needs with protein and paleo carbs, maybe with some sweet potatoes/yams for denser sources.

if she can't digest whole protein well either, she might try MRM's supplemental whey with nitrozyme--breaks down the peptides and makes digestion a lot easier (I can take 200-300 g/day of the stuff with zero problems).

http://www.mrm-usa.com/proddetail.php?prod=Metabolic-Whey-5lbs&cat=17

Joseph Hart
08-21-2006, 09:05 PM
Similar problem. My wife has been unable to digest protein but fat is okay. Now to my point. From all the stuff that I have read. If I am wrong on this some one please correct me. Your body absorbs fat two ways. It can go directly from the intestines into the blood (and then to the liver?) (short chain trigylcerides) and fat globules (long chain) into the lymph system and to the liver for massaging into fatty acids that the body can use. The next question is does she poop the fat out or pee the fat out? I guess a fatty poop is really nasty. There is something wrong with the bowel if you are pooping it. Here intestines could be inflammed and which can cause a back pressure on the lymph system and cause problem. I am not sure what could be wrong if you pee it out. The liver not doing the right thing? There could be other GI things like not enough enzymes from the pancreas and gall bladder to help with digestion. The reason I have a vague idea is that my wife has been having GI issues and I have been scouring the internet. Took her to the Mayo Clinic, because the local docs weren't cutting it. Turns out that she could have pericarditis that is putting back pressure on the lymph system that then messes with her guts. Talk about frustrating. You client should get another opinion. Just my long drawn out and possibly inaccurate two cents.

Bobbi Beglau Salvini
08-21-2006, 09:06 PM
Same thing happened to me if I ate any fat; I would get spastic colon until I would finally throw up. It turned out to be a bad gallbladder that triggered all this. It took 5 different doctors and 14 years of , and finally my sister diagnosed me. Had the dang durn thing out a year and a half ago, and feel wonderful. It also cured my lower back pain that would show up every time I tried to lie down. It could be a lot of things but it would not hurt to pursue this avenue.

Peter Terry Haas
08-22-2006, 06:57 AM
Has she had any sort of genetic screening? Does she have any sort of deformities or other maladies?

Enzyme deficiencies can manifest with physical deformities as a result of genetic abnormalities. The physical symptoms not need be congenital, they may have manifested recently. The inability to digest fat coupled with the osteoporosis makes me think this.

Good luck helping your client

Jenika Gordon
08-24-2006, 08:37 AM
Thank you to everyone! Peter no she has not had any sort of genetic screening. I will let her know. Greg, she cannot take fish oil, so I will let her know about the supplemental digestive enzymes. Thanks Guys.

Taha Mohamedali
08-24-2006, 11:24 AM
Jenika,
I second the recommendation on Pro-biotics and also agree with Greg's direction towards a high quality Protien supplement.
Do you know if your client has had any injuries or surgery in the pancreatic region? My aunt has a similar issue with digesting fat and it's because she cannot produce enough bile. Bile emulsifies the fat that we eat, ie. it takes a large clump of many fat molecules and separates them out into smaller, digestable clumps.

here's a nice link:
http://www.colorado.edu/eeb/web_resources/cartoons/bile.html

William Hunter
08-24-2006, 02:31 PM
I thought bile was produced by the liver and stored in the gallbladder.

Bobbi - I'm surprised it took doctors that long to dx your gallbladder. Maybe that's b/c I live in the south, where people are big...and unhealthy. Gallbladders get sucked out arthroscopically morning noon and night here.

Females in their forties have a higher incidence of GB dysfunction than most other groups, FWIW.

Garrett Smith
08-25-2006, 03:22 PM
I don't have time for a long explanation of the following, I'm going to contribute it anyway...

I'd hazard a guess (more like I know) your client has had her gallbladder removed. I see this issue all too often. Set it up, knock it down. I actually ask my middle-aged female patients if they have their gallbladder early in the interview!

Liver makes bile, gallbladder stores bile, bile is squirted out as necessary for fat-containing meals. The gallbladder DOES have a function, as is evidenced in these situations!

If the liver is overloaded, the bile is full of "toxins" (I don't like the word either, it is a necessary evil). A normal route of the liver's detoxification is through the bile (and hence through the stool). Over time, these "toxins" marinate the gallbladder, resulting in gallbladder issues (attacks/cholecystitis and stones/cholelithiasis).

With nearly any GI issue these days, conventional doctors do not hesitate in any way to remove people's (especially women's) gallbladders. The gallbladder "group" is the 4 F's--Female, Fat, Forty, and Fertile. Removal of the GB does not fix the problem that the liver has (in terms of being overloaded and creating toxic bile) while removing the body's ability to store bile for use with fatty meals (one is left with a trickle of bile versus a big bolus). Thus we have a giant segment of the population unable to digest fats (that's on top of the fact that most people are eating rancid/hydrogenated/plasticized fats).

So, these people need bile. Ox bile is what is commonly used. I provide it to my patients in the form of Hypo-Gest from Priority One. Typically 1-6 tablets (this is determined black box style by the patient) taken in the MIDDLE of a meal. This will often remedy problems immediately. For example, I helped a patient relieve her gallbladder pain (and vomiting with fatty meals) that radiated to her back (classic!) with 1 tablet per meal.

Such a simple solution. Too bad it doesn't make Big Pharma any money or more doctors would actually know about it.

BTW, the liver is overloaded b/c nearly everyone's guts are compromised--the portal vein takes all of the "stuff" from the intestines directly to the liver to be "processed". Got bad guts, you got a bad liver. Gotta fix the gut if you ever want to fix the liver. Want to fix the gut? Get the Body Ecology Diet book by Donna Gates (www.BodyEcologyDiet.com (http://www.BodyEcologyDiet.com)). For those of you on this board who think I know what I'm talking about, this book has finally put together many of the missing pieces (yes, even the Paleo/Zone has holes one can drive a truck through) for me.

I don't have time for skeptics, believe it if you wish. Or even better, try it out!

Steve Liberati
08-26-2006, 07:55 AM
Garrett,
I must admit that I was highly skeptical of your nutritional advice at first. However, after doing additional research and more importantly, experimenting with some of your dietary suggestions...I've become a true believer in your work and the benefits of "dietary healing." This might not be the right time to say it, but I wanted to thank you for your contributions here and also to the other crossfitters for dispensing top-notch nutrition knowledge. This site (as well Art DeVaney's blog) have been a true blessing in disguise in my life. Thank you and keep up the good work! Karma is a wonder thing.

Robert Wolf
08-26-2006, 01:19 PM
Yep, if the Gb has been removed that would be a problem. it could also be an occluded bile duct and or lack of bile production. That covers the fat, its troubling that she seems to have problems of all types. In the short run MCT's from coconut oil may be helpful since htey do not require bile to be absorbed. Puree all foods in a blender (soup anyone?) to increase the surface area of the food and enhance any digestion that is occuring. Small meals are obviously key.

In addition to the genetic screaning the doc is hopefully looking at pancreatic function, liver bile function/production and possibly before any of that is looking at and O&P (ova & parasite).

Like Garrett said, you are only as healthy as your gut!

Bobbi Beglau Salvini
08-28-2006, 02:04 PM
Perhaps this info. from Dr. Smith could be listed in the CrossFit information section under diet. How great it would be for people to get on a diet that promotes health from the beginning, instead of learning the hard way. I never had the “classic” gallbladder pain because I followed the media hype of eating almost fat free. In the mean time, my gallbladder became filled with stones and scar tissue. When I asked the surgeon how I should modify diet after my gallbladder had been removed, he just laughed and said mine was such a ball of scar tissue it had not worked for years; so I would know no difference. He said only polar bears need a gallbladder. It had not occurred to me that a surgeon was not necessarily the best place to get nutrition advice. Thank you Garrett, I will put your info. to good use.

Garrett Smith
08-28-2006, 03:13 PM
It's nice to know when I'm appreciated.

I am glad that so many have benefited from the advice that I wouldn't have ever been able to give in person. This forum has also given me a space to write down a lot of stream of consciousness stuff that I can refer back to later.

As I mentioned before regarding the BED book, it is the first and ONLY book on diet that I would recommend to my patients regarding diet--I believe it to be about 95% correct (that's huge!). Other books on health I highly recommend are "Lights Out! Sleep, Sugar, and Survival" and "Making Waves" by Roger Lewin.

BTW, if someone is missing their GB, they aren't digesting their food properly (even if they don't feel like they have problems). They need some supplemental bile.

I had one woman without a GB who said the SMELL of fat would make her vomit. It is absolutely disgusting how so many health professionals disrespect our perfectly created human bodies on a regular basis.

Yael Grauer
08-29-2006, 06:05 PM
Dr. G,
I hope you don't mind me asking what holes you're referring to in Zone/Paleo. I think Zone is too low in fat, and I'm not a fan of canola oil or flax oil or diet sodas, but was wondering if there's anything else I'm missing.

My favorite health books this week are Nourishing Traditions and Dangerous Grains and I just ordered
Dr.Abravanel’s Body Type Diet and Lifetime Nutrition Plan ( http://www.bodytypes.com )

Jenika Gordon
08-29-2006, 10:13 PM
Everyone, thank you so much again. I am going to get my client to check out the book by Donna Gates. I will also ask her if she still has a gallbladder!

Garrett Smith
08-31-2006, 07:49 AM
If someone has a dysbiosis, neither of the diets (Zone/Paleo) will help. They both ignore the ecology of the GI system. After my continually surprising success in improving nearly all of my patients' health with probiotics (www.EssentialFormulas.com (http://www.EssentialFormulas.com)) and iodine (antibacterial, besides restoring thyroid function in those who are deficient), I cannot believe otherwise. The improvements I have seen in my own health on the BED have been too impressive to ignore and write off.

The Zone encourages too many carbs IMO (regardless of source) and Paleo allows too much fruit. After trying the most basic food-combining "rule" from the BED of not combining fruit (and at the start, the types of fruit allowed are very limited) with other foods, I'm beginning to see why people get a problem.

I'm becoming of the mind that nearly everyone who doesn't eat some kind of cultured food or good probiotic source everyday, has an issue with dysbiosis. Got fungus anywhere on your body? There's fungus in your gut.

Anyway, that's all for now. I won't be spending too much time hashing out all of the basic details of the diet on the board. I highly suggest people get the book, read it, TRY it out, before intellectualizing about what they think is wrong with it (a fancy way of saying "I don't want to do it").

Robert Wolf
08-31-2006, 12:42 PM
Garrett-
Zone-agree
Paleo-Diet-agree
BED-agree. I tend to use raw saurkraut. Fits into a "Paleo" framework pretty well when consumption of herbivore gut contents is considered.YUM.

Barry sears admits his carb recomendations are potentially too high. Never liked the static element of it. Seasonal, local etc.

Yael-Cordain uses things like diet soda as a transition to cleaner eating. diet soda sux, but its better than the real stuff. Canola oil...not a fave of mine but he likes it as a way of propping up the n-3's in the diet.

Yael Grauer
09-01-2006, 12:01 AM
Dr. G,

First just wanted to say I really do appreciate all the info you've posted on here and in the archives and in the CF Live archive, I've gotten a LOT out of it and I love that you post on here.

As someone who's tried maybe like a half dozen diets over the past five years, AFTER researching them (most of which had disastrous results which I didn't figure out until about 6 months into them), I don't think it's fair to say that trying to look into something before jumping into it is necessarily intellectualizing it because you don't want to do it. I've come to the conclusion that most diets have some good components and that they ALL need to be tweaked or at least looked at thoroughly before trying them out and I do the same thing with any meds allopathic docs try to get me to take too.

I just finished the Body Ecology book and I really like it, in fact the diet recommended is very similar to an Ayurvedic diet that my former housemate followed when she was suffering from candida, and the results were amazing. Symptoms she'd been suffering from for a LONG time completely cleared up within three months.

I wasn't so keen on the idea of having no protein meals (I did the Elson Haas diet for a long time having protein only at lunch time, along with food combining, and I ended up anemic from it--but I'm a fast oxidizer) and I'm skeptical about a few other things, but I agree that 90% of it was great. Love the focus on ocean vegetables. There's a great herbalist named Ryan Drum that has a good article here: http://www.ryandrum.com/seaxpan1.html

I love that they mentioned olive leaf extract (I tincture olive leaves to have on hand for the winter) and of course the emphasis on raw foods and cultures. I love the part about soaking grains if you must eat grains (to neutralize the phytic acid as well as making it easier to digest--as someone who's been anemic in the past I'm pretty anti phytic acid). And of course I can't wait to try the coconut kefir and some of the other recipes. I agree that it's an awesome book and would be great for anyone who can't digest fat (as you'd originally posted about.) One of my herb teachers has had good luck with yellow dock tincture (in addition to dietary changes, etc.) for this.

Thanks for answering the question about diets. What I personally want to try is to eat foods based on my metabolic type--I've been working with a healer who recommended I get that figured out so I can make food choices and supplement choices based on that. Finding out that I was an 87% fast oxidative dominant type suddenly made me realize why the Zone diet made me want a much higher fat and protein percentage, but I don't think this is true for everyone. In a few months after I see if the suggestions from typing worked for me, I'll know whether I'd be more likely to recommend people get their type analyzed and eat based on those recommendations, rather than try different diets and keep having to tweak them every few months. Just want to see if I get results first.

I hope some of this was somewhat helpful and maybe shows where I'm coming from. Love the info you share, Dr. G. (Btw I am ending up taking probiotics and ox bile for a while, but different types than those you mentioned (ProBio Max and Enzaid). My gut just tells me that diets need to be tweaked in different ways for different people.

Robb--Understood. I thought that canola oil is processed in a way that kills Omega-3's though.

I am sorry if I sound like I'm nitpicking. That's not my intent. Just trying to be discerning.

Jenika--best of luck with your client!!

Thanks again Dr. G (and Robb.)

y

Yael Grauer
09-01-2006, 01:08 AM
P.S. I meant to type "no-protein meals" not "no protein meals"--as in, some of the meals only include grain and veg.

Garrett Smith
09-01-2006, 05:49 AM
Rob,
Glad to hear you agree!

Yael,
I don't think you're nitpicking. I know for myself if I hadn't tried this diet outright, I could have thoroughly invoked my prior prejudices (no to ALL grains, blood type, etc.) and completely disregarded the book. I chose not to. I'm extremely happy I did try it out. I have been rewarded with, for those familiar with what I mean here, quite a few "cleansing/detoxing" episodes since beginning the diet, besides the fact I have returned to around 6% body fat (my previous low on the standard fat Paleo/Zone) without the hormonal/energy "crash" I had before. Note that the diet includes the "principle of uniqueness", that everyone has to do what is right for them.

To this point, I have not included any of the BED grains nor cultured dairy (other than the X-Factor Gold Butter Oil) on my version of the diet. I'm also typically eating meat or fish 2x/day. A small bit of lime juice and 100% cranberry juice with my morning green drink. The fact that I'm male, Type O (for whatever that part is worth), and a fast oxidator, would seem to say that my system would prefer a bit more animal protein and fat. So, that's exactly what I do.

What this diet has opened my eyes to is the very distinct possibility that my wife's optimal version of this diet is going to be very different than mine--she is a Type A (haven't done her metabolic type yet, although I'm positive she's a slow oxidator), probably needing a whole lot less fat, salt, and animal protein than myself.

About cultured foods, one of the common threads Weston Price found in the "healthy" population groups was the consumption of cultured foods at least once a day. I'm now getting some form of cultured food (or probiotics) 3-4x/day, between the raw apple cider vinegar, kombucha, cultured veggies, green drink with probiotics, and my dwindling supply of pill probiotics (which I may or may not be refilling when it's out). The effects these items have on one's guts (and therefore whole body) are amazing.

Mike ODonnell
09-01-2006, 08:31 AM
Excellent information Dr G. Thank you for your insight. I always thought the Zone was a little high in carbs for me personally, nice to see someone agree. Also good to hear the importance of gut balance in regards to health and energy. Stuff I know should be a priority, but always need to be reminded of.

Garrett Smith
09-01-2006, 09:48 AM
Mike,
As I'm realizing through my own experimentation and observations of my patients, the gut "ecology" and health is top priority. If that is working well, the body can and will deal with issues in other areas very well on its own.

Even in a place like naturopathic medical school this area has been woefully underemphasized, undertaught, and/or completely ignored. Now that I understand the crucial, crucial, crucial importance of this, my patients will much sooner realize the higher levels of health that I wish to help them reach (if they wish to join the journey).

Mike ODonnell
09-01-2006, 09:59 AM
Dr G,
I wish there were more physicians out there who had your view, we might actually end up making people healthy! Scary thought I know pharmaceutical companies would not want to hear.

What is your opinion on digestive enzyme supplementation? I know it helps people with digestive issues. But for people with no digestive problems is it recommended? Would supplementing with enzymes eventually lead the body to start producing less on it's own, therefore compromising long term health?

Also do you recommend any of your patients do any kind of "detox" regimend to help clean out the GI tract first? (such as a high fiber colon cleanse, liver detox, or so forth?) Or would just naturally switching to raw fruits and vegetables and less processed foods/sugar/trans fat take care of that on it's own?

Garrett Smith
09-01-2006, 02:04 PM
Mike,

I understand the confusion on digestive enzyme "supplementation". Here's my take.

Food contains enzymes. Processed food contains fewer enzymes due to heat/freezing/aging etc. We lean towards eating foods that are processed "less" for the very fact that they have more enzymes (and thus don't *deplete* the body of the enzymes necessary for their digestion/metabolism). I've never heard anyone advice to NOT eat fresh or unprocessed food in order to avoid the potential "downregulation" of the body's enzyme-production processes. Does that make sense? If enzyme production can be "downregulated", wouldn't that be a big problem for those eating unprocessed foods?

As for detox diets, as a physician in the alternative medical field, one can guess that I've tried a ton of different diets and cleanses/detoxes. My only recommendation in this area, and to avoid having to do "specific" cleanses later in life (or even on a seasonal/yearly basis), is to begin the Body Ecology Diet and be very strict for at least 10 days. I personally never had any significant "detox" reactions on specific cleanses/detoxes/fasts before.

I'm amazed at what is happening with this diet and my body. That's on top of the fact that I'm "detoxing" *and* breaking all of the generalized "detox" rules--ie. fasting, no meat, no salt, all juice, etc. etc. etc. This works. No doubt in my mind.

FYI, raw cultured vegetables kick straight raw vegetables' butt any day in terms of cleansing yourself out.

Mike ODonnell
09-01-2006, 06:49 PM
Dr G,

I applologize for not clarifying. I meant to suggest that taking supplemental digestive enzymes from "pills" as opposed to more fruits and vegetables. I was confused whether taking the pill form of enzymes would mess with the body's ability to form enzymes (whether from food or othewise). I've heard people say take them on empty stomach between meals and they work into the bloodstream to break down foreign matter in the joints vs taking it will meals and then they are used on the food only.

I will get the body ecology book and look forward to reading it. I have read so many different books and websites on detox, cleanses, gallblader cleanses, liver flush, and all those things...gets way to confusing and complicated. Makes me question whether I really need all that or if one diet will cleanse and detox over time anyways.

Garrett Smith
09-02-2006, 02:05 PM
Mike,
I understand what you meant. I don't believe that there will be a downregulation of the enzymes if they are plant-based. I looked at the Assist enzyme formulation by Body Ecology recently--I was amazed when it WAY overpowered the stuff (Innate Plant Enzymes) I had previously been using. I was impressed, to say the least. I will be carrying a different enzyme supplement from this point forward.

All those things you have read are quick-fix-attempts at cleaning up the body from inherently healthy diets. I believe the BED is an inherently "cleansing" diet that doesn't need much additional "cleansing" on top of it, one major reason being that a healthy gut gets rid of the waste on a regular, ongoing basis. That is what I have seen in myself, which is a prerequisite for me recommending anything to any of my patients.

My suggestion is to read the BED, try it, and sit with it for a good while. It will help you realize what the missing piece(s) have been in nearly all of those previous "detox" approaches.

Mike ODonnell
09-02-2006, 03:17 PM
Dr G,

Have you ever looked into any of the supplements that Dr Mercola presents on his website? Wondering if they were as good as he says they are, or if the generic probiotics and enzymes from the local health food store give the same results.

Also, I have some arthritis patients that take a tsp of raw unfiltered apple cider vinegar 1-2x a day and swear by it. I am assuming it has something to do with live enzymes in the raw "mother" environment, as well as some other minerals? Just wondered your experience with it.

And I do agree with you, a long term diet that is geared toward healing the gut will promote a long term detox affect. Thanks for your insight! Doctors as knowledgeable as you are pretty rare out there.

Jordan Glasser
09-02-2006, 03:18 PM
just posted this on the wrong topic, I'll try and fix my mistake. Sorry about that.

I've got a question that stems back from digesting fats. After about 6 months on the zone and getting all the results I started to have some GI problems. I have since tried everything to find the source, eliminating one food at at a time, strict paleo, more fat blocks, less fat blocks, etc. What's more concerning is my performance has dropped considerably. My thoughts are I am not digesting the amount of fats that I am consuming. I have no scientific explanations for those conclusions, just a guess.

Has anyone had this problem? I've been chasing my tail since May, and after exhausting many possible explanations, I am am guessing this has happened to someone before.

Any advice?

And I don't believe it's too low body fat!

Mike ODonnell
09-02-2006, 03:35 PM
Jordan,

As far as I know the only way to find out if you are not digesting your fats is to do a stool sample to see if they are in there. (sign of not digesting). I would try these 3 things.
1) Try a good Probiotic
2) Try a good plant based digestive enzyme with food
3) Get the book Dr G mentioned above.
As Dr G says, just eat to heal the gut and everything around it will get better.

Jordan Glasser
09-02-2006, 04:05 PM
I already ordered the book and am on the way to get myself a priobotic. Seems alot more reasonable then a stool sample. But, if that doesn't work, I'll be sampling away!

thanks.

Garrett Smith
09-03-2006, 10:09 AM
Jordan,
If your stools float all the time, that's the first sign that you may not be digesting your fats well. Steatorrhea is the term for fats in the stool, if you care to research it for your own edification. Here's one site: http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/s/steatorrhea/causes.htm

FYI, anyone who I run a GI test and *anything* comes back abnormal, the treatment is going to be very, very similar. Simple philosophy of medicine that holds true no matter what the condition: give the body what it needs, make sure the body is getting rid of waste properly, and then get the heck out of the way!

For anyone getting a probiotic, don't waste your time or money on cheap ones--just like fish oil, you get what you pay for.

As I've mentioned before, here are the two brands that I believe concern themselves most with the quality of their product (and not just the numbers they can present):

Cod Liver Oil (in today's "indoor" world, I believe nearly everyone who doesn't work all day outdoors can benefit from the natural vitamin D in good CLO, I don't bother with just fish oil):
www.greenpasture.org (http://www.greenpasture.org)

Probiotics:
www.EssentialFormulas.com (http://www.EssentialFormulas.com)

Or learn how to make your own probiotics in cultured veggies, kefir, kombucha, raw apple cider vinegar, etc. Much cheaper, and a very satisfying home "science experiment"!

Yael Grauer
09-03-2006, 11:15 PM
I just wanted to add something about "detoxes" and that's that you can really really hurt yourself if they are not indicated, if you're doing them improperly, if you have underlying health problems even if you're not aware of it. This includes the $300 "detoxes" you can get in stores with five zillion supplements that were obviously not formulated by anyone who knows what they're doing.
I've seen some people in pretty bad shape from "detoxing."

I probably would not buy a detox formula in a store, especially if I didn't know who put it together and whether it did what it was supposed to do and who it's indicated for. There are tons of variables with herbs, there is no one-size-fits-all.

In general, you can kind of tell the dfference between a detox-induced healing reaction and a detox that is actually making you sick by seeing how you feel on a deeper level. For example, if you go on the BED diet and feel kind of tired and get some rashes or other skin problems, but on a deeper level you feel strong and clear, it is a healing reaction. If, on the other hand, you decide you need to "detox" and only eat salad while taking tons of strong herbal laxatives you bought in the store, or toxic levels of black walnut husk and wormwood because you read a book and decided you had worms, and you feel weak and shaky, that's not a healing reaction and you need to get off the "detox", eat some chicken soup and take a nap.

Before going on a detox diet, figure out who developed it, what their rationale is, if there's any science behind it, if there's other ways you can accomplish what you're trying to do, etc.

Diet is a zillion times more important than any "colon cleanses" you can find at the store, or any herbs at all, period. (You can throw herbs at symptoms 'til the cows come home and will not be any healthier for it unless it's part of a bigger regimen. Diet first. Any herbalist worth their salt will say the same.)

Mike ODonnell
09-04-2006, 09:55 AM
I've read that especially for the fast oxidizer (protein type) you will need extra Vit E (400-800iu) if you are taking fish/cod liver oil to help it from going rancid and creating free radicals in the body.

Jordan Glasser
09-04-2006, 10:13 PM
The knowledge here is incredible. Thanks for all the help and info. I did buy some probiotics at the local store, really not much to chose from. My alertness, energy levels, and my WOD felt better then they have in the recent past. By no means am I leaving this to rest, I have a lot of reading to do, but it's a great feeling knowing that I have all this info at the touch of a keyboard....if only I could type faster!

Thanks again,
Jordan

Yael Grauer
09-04-2006, 10:15 PM
Hmmm, in my humble opinion just use it up within 3 months and keep it in the fridge.

Someone told me synthetic forms of vit. E can be toxic... No time to research this because I'm knee-deep in five other things I'm looking into, but if you google "vitamin e" + "synthetic" + "toxic" you'll get a bunch of hits.

You can get it in spinach, almonds, mangos, kiwi, broccoli... If you're a fast oxidizer, you can get it in spinach and almonds.

Garrett Smith
09-05-2006, 06:00 AM
I always have people take 400IU of a natural (from palm fruit oil) mixed tocopherol/tocotrienol (Innate Response's Complete 8 Vitamin E http://www.innateresponse.com/INNATE-VitaminE.pdf) with their CLO.

Better safe than sorry, no matter what the metabolic type.

It may be easier for others to find threads they are interested in if new threads are started for new subjects...