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Jay Edvardz
12-28-2003, 07:09 PM
I am currently testing out a Warrior Diet - Paleo hybrid. The only thing I am worried about with this plan is the possible loss of muscle. Listed below is my food intake for the day. Any advice, thoughts, suggestions, etc., would be greatly appreciated.

Wake Up.
Workout - 4 raw eggs after workout
throughout the day 2-3 handfulls of almonds.
Main dinner. Salad with romaine, cucumbers, tomatoes, and a good amount of olive oil.
Around 1.5 pounds of leg of lamb slow cooked in the crockpot with a 3 pound cabbage.
Consumed nearly everything.

-Jay

Kevin Roddy
12-28-2003, 09:25 PM
So long as you're getting all your calories, you should be set.

I haven't yet ventured into the world of raw eggs. It still sounds a little too gross to me :uhoh:

Sean Harrison
12-28-2003, 10:12 PM
Do not eat raw eggs.

Jay Edvardz
12-29-2003, 06:54 AM
Well... I am paying the price for eating raw eggs... I just crapped out 4 live baby chickens... Who would've guessed my stomach would act as an incubator! Just kidding!

I have been eating raw eggs for a very long time and have suffered no ill consequence. For now, I will continue with this practice. However, if I do end up sick, I will let you know so that you can point your finger, while laughing, and say "I told you so." :-)

-Jay

Sean Harrison
12-29-2003, 07:54 AM
Why eat them raw anyway? Is Rocky your favorite movie or something?:lame:

J. D. Hernandez
12-29-2003, 08:43 AM
Jay,

Yeah I agree with Kevin, just eat all the necessary calories. I eat a high protein meal (can of tuna) usually about midday. Remeber the undereating phase doesn't mean no eating, just less than usual.

J.D.

Jay Edvardz
12-29-2003, 09:44 AM
Sean - Just prefer them that way. I get free range organic eggs, they actually taste quite sweet raw.

J.D. - I eat a can of tuna or some almonds during the undereating phase. How has the WD worked for you thus far?

-Jay

Robert Wolf
12-29-2003, 08:13 PM
Jay-

At least soft boil them. eggs contain avidin which inhibits protein digestion and b-vitamin uptake.
Robb

Jay Edvardz
12-29-2003, 09:15 PM
Rob,

Fair enough. Other than that, how does my daily food consumption look? I seem to be feeling damn good so far.

-Jay

Robert Wolf
12-30-2003, 02:07 PM
Jay-

If you feel good and are making performance gains that is the real gold standard. I am the catabolic kid...so i have to really watch my "fasting". I have had good sucsess with this intermitent fasting IF I get enough calories in on other days.
Keep us posted
Robb

Roy
12-30-2003, 04:37 PM
When I was on the warrior diet, I thought of a cyclic keto twist with it. Something like fasting with small pieces of meat, and overeating with meat, oils, nuts(and of course some green fibrous veggies) for 3 or 4 days, and then one day of the overeating being meat and tons of fruit.

Raw eggs?.........:uhoh:

I always thought I was hardcore from eating sardines out of the can in front of friends and family, but raw eggs. Wow. Palatability is still somewhat important. I think I'd puke doing that.

Cheers

Roy

J. D. Hernandez
12-30-2003, 10:44 PM
Jay,

Being I was already on NHE/Paleo, I was already quite lean. But so far no muscle lost, and definitely no energy lost. The enrgy lost (as well as strength gains) are my primary purpose of dieting. In other words, so far so good.

J.D.

Jay Edvardz
12-31-2003, 06:54 AM
Rob - I'll keep you posted on how everything progresses. Between Crossfit and this new dietary regimen, I am leaning out extremely fast and maintaining muscle mass.

Roy - In a way, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm trying to cycle everything as much as possible (ALA Art De Vany).

J.D. - Thanks for the input.

-Jay

dustin depanicis
01-11-2004, 08:31 AM
first off your body doesnt digest raw egg protein so you should definitely start cooking them to get the benefits, for two salmonela.

also, you are going to lose muscles while on an keto diet, its inevitable.. it does stop at a certain point but you have to think that your depriving yourself of the glycogen taht your muscles are made of..

Kevin Roddy
01-11-2004, 09:17 AM
Since when are muscles made of glycogen?

Roy
01-11-2004, 09:18 AM
Dustin, I believe the only way to actually lose muscle is being on keto for very long periods of time(atkins) which I agree is not good in the long run. Not only for that reason, but also, if you go lets say 3-6 months with low or no carbs, and suddenly carb up again, you will develop several micro-tears in all muscle tissue from the glycogen "surprise." You will also get tears in muscles you definitely dont want them: The Heart.

However, as far as I know, Jay is cycling carbs. Carbs should not be terminated from diet, IMO, but either moderated, or better yet, cycled.

And keto actually preserves muscle. There are studies on this everywhere, but on the internet, I found that it is important to take a good look at each website before taking it seriously. .edu websites are the most trustworthy when it comes to studies. A lot of Ketosis studies are pretty consistent and solid. Another good way to monitor is the scale, the tape measure, mirror, body fat percentage, etc. In 9 days, I lost 4 pounds of fat and preserved all my muscle from eating nothing but meat, flax oil, and some nuts and lettuce for fiber. Today is a carb up day for me. This all works great for me, but maybe not for others. Experimentation here is the key.

Cheers

Roy

dustin depanicis
01-11-2004, 12:00 PM
im not too familiar with the "warrior" diet but from looking at the foods he was eating it looks very ketogenic to me thats why i posted that.. and yes i believe carbs are essential for maintaining and building muscle mass..

and kevin i didnt mean they were made of glycogen per se. but its what makes up a large part of the muscle.

J. D. Hernandez
01-11-2004, 03:59 PM
Dustin,

I advise reading Warrior Diet before commenting on it. The same thing happens over at the Dragon Door Forum. The author (Ori Hoflemker) definitely isn't an advocate of ketogenic diets, as a matter of fact over at the dragon door articles page he has an article on why carbs should not be eliminated from ones diet. Glycogen also doesn't make up muscle at all, glycogen is the prefered feul of skeletal muscle. The warrior diet is also not a restrictive diet when it comes to calories, it has to do with timing. Also when on any diet you don't lose muscle, but may have a decrease in muscle mass, which is totally different. I have practiced a warrior type diet for about four months now, have maintained a body weight of 183-187 and my body fat levels stay around 7-10%. I haven't lost any muscle mass, and despite not being extremely consistent (holidays and enjoying life), I have maintained my intensity on all my lifts and exercises. You will find on this forum, that the common consensus is body weight ratio to strength, not really in gaining mass. Performance is the common goal here, not aesthetic apearance. There are a number of people who do practice a form of intermittent fasting, and do enjoy great sucess with it. Guess what I'm trying to say is please don't speak out against something before educating yourself on what that something is. Saying things such as the WD is ketogenic and calorie restrictive leads misinformed people to beleive that, just like over on the dragon door forum how some of those guys think Ori advocates eating whatever you want. It just paints a very misleading picture. I'm not a big Ori fan either, just think that the concept he has presented works very well when applied properly (the key word being properly). No dis-respect intended.

J.D.

dustin depanicis
01-11-2004, 04:40 PM
dont get me wrong.. wasnt saying the diet didnt work.. all i commented on was the low carb approach.. and yes if you do a ketogenic diet you will lose some muscle mass period.. its gonna happen no matter how you look at it.. and yes glycogen is stored in your muscles and yes that glycogen is depleted as you progress on the keto diet and yes your body does convert some of the proteins to glycogen before it switches to fat as its primary source, i have seen it time and time again in my clients..

on another note i will take a look at the diet. .never really heard of it..

Scott Parker
01-11-2004, 06:35 PM
quoted by dustin:

"and yes i believe carbs are essential for maintaining and building muscle mass.."

i have to disagree. within the last year i put on about 7 or 8 lbs. (and for me that is REALLY hard to do since my metabolism is out of control), and followed a VERY strict paleo diet. carbs came from leafy greens and occasional fruit. also, my bodyfat dropped from about 11% and was down to 5.5% - 6.0% at my best.

hang around here for a little while longer, and you will start to see the light!

also, like i have said before, there is a huge difference between being "fit and healthy" and just being "big". big is not impressive to me anymore. i used to get laughed at at the gym and get funny looks when i first started doing crossfit. that began to stop when, after a few months of following crossfit started knocking off muscle-ups on a pull-up bar. i can almost guarantee you can take any other person there, and nobody can do one. my point...you can be big and still not be fit. also, as you get bigger you start to sacrifice speed, endurance, etc. your muscles need more O2, you work harder to make that happen. the key is finding balance. sure, if i really wanted to, i could bulk up if i really tried, but i can guarantee my performance would suffer...it's just depends on what you are training for.

scott

Roy
01-11-2004, 09:17 PM
What you lose on keto is water mass, not muscle mass, but if you want, you may call it muscle mass since a lot of muscle is water anyway. There is one glucose molecule to every 2.7 water molecules.

Dustin, with all do respect, answer me this question: Why is it that when I ate nothing but meat and flax oil(lettuce for fiber) for 9 straight days, my bodyfat went from 11.20% to 7.89% and my lean body mass stayed the same and my strength skyrocketed? Within these nine days, I achieved the following:

Muscle up

cleaned my bodyweight

frontflip 900(2 twists) on trampoline, with perfect landing.

Better overall mood

Tourettes syndrome symptoms significantly less than they've ever been in my life



Today was my first re-carb day. Im doing a CKD a little differently. 3 days of the above mentioned(meat, oil, lettuce) and the fourth day of fruit and meat at every meal. Im doing very well with it.

Like scott, bodybuilders do not impress me at all. Olympic weightlifters who weigh 130 pounds snatching over 400 pounds: THATS IMPRESSIVE! Not Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler being statues. The only bodybuilder who impresses me is Ilan Rosenberg. He gets up on stage, does the splits, aerials, backflips, breakdancing, you name it. This dude is a true freak. Avid martial artist too, and gymnast. Give the WOD a shot with full intensity, please.

Cheers

Roy