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View Full Version : Snatch technique after a long layoff


Gabe Rinaldi
05-10-2006, 07:00 PM
http://www.focusedtrainers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236

Here's a link to our forum...scroll down and take a look at the lift at 65kg. We just got Dartfish software so I was learning some basic features today. I decided to do some lifts at the same time. I haven't done much snatching in a long time. My timing is way off and the trajectory of the barbell is pretty ugly. I have my own thoughts, but anyone else want to critique.
Thanks,
Gabe

Lincoln Brigham
05-10-2006, 07:10 PM
Gabe, I registered my login but wasn't allowed to download the file. Anyway, I don't need to see the video to identify the problem. You are too tall. Once you fix that, you'll be fine.

Gabe Rinaldi
05-10-2006, 07:35 PM
oooppsss...brain fart. I forgot you would have to register to download the file. I'm not sure the file size limits on this board, but I'll try to attach the file directly. Otherwise, I approved your registration on our forum Lincoln so you should be able to access it that way if I can't upload it here. I know I am too damn tall to be a good lifter at my weight.....argggh. No excuses though!

Gabe Rinaldi
05-10-2006, 07:36 PM
here it is (I hope)

Lincoln Brigham
05-10-2006, 08:20 PM
Okay. You know as well as I do that this is good lifting. With that in mind, here's what I see:

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/13350/24204.jpg

Your first pull starts by going away from you (green line) not back (red line). It looks much like Ivan Chakarov's style, but he could squat triple bodyweight for 3 reps and the rest of us mortals can't. He could get away with it.

From this angle it looks like the bar starts lined up over the end of the foot. It should start closer; over the toe joint. Or it could just be the camera angle. But if not, moving it in closer could fix stuff.

You jump back a little, no big deal at this point because it matches the bar's movement.

This lift is a power snatch that you ride down into a squat. The pull is up to your eyeballs. Either way, when you scrape off the rust you'll want to work on getting under it sooner and stopping the downward progression quicker.

Mostly I think you just need to adjust the first pull bar path and you're good to go.

Gabe Rinaldi
05-10-2006, 09:24 PM
Lincoln,

Thanks for the comments. When you look at the green trajectory line at the start (before I jump back) it does look like the bar was more over the toe. I know for sure the bar was touching my shin in my starting position. I thought I had the camera at a complete side view, but I think it is slightly off.

The lifts definitely felt a bit rough, and after watching this over and over I think my starting position needs some changing....maybe raising my hips about 2" and keeping my shoulders slightly over the bar. I think this will fix my first pull. I agree with you that fixing my first pull will help a lot.

The video definitely shows me just how slow I am to pull under. It is way too high and then ridden into a squat.

I want to start doing more OWL so I think I'll start by working on my starting position and then maybe doing some Snatch balances, drop snatches, 3 position snatches, etc. to speed up my pull under.

In general do you coaches like to see the feet land without any forward or backward translation or what?

Veronica Carpenter
05-10-2006, 10:57 PM
Gabe, an outward and slight backward landing is OK.

Gabe Rinaldi
05-11-2006, 05:45 AM
Veronica - what is your preferred landing position? for yourself....or for anyone you are coaching?

Lincoln Brigham
05-11-2006, 06:55 AM
Gabe, my feelings are that a big backwards jump will have a big horizontal bar movement. That will create horizontal momentum that will have to be stopped. It will also have a larger margin of error, making it more difficult to land in the same spot every time. So that's two additional variables to deal with that are perhaps unnecessary. But that's for big backwards jumps. Little jumps back are okay in my book as long as the lifter brings the bar back with them. (As Mike B. would say.)

I have seen some lifters who consistently jump back and jump back further than the bar, leaving the bar out in front despite the fact that the bar moves back. It doesn't seem to be the jumping that is the problem, but something in the pull is usually badly off.

In watching Vanev's pulls, he has a huge backwards jump. That may explain why his snatch was 40-some kilos less than his clean. In the clean he could stop the horizontal movement with his body, but in the snatch it's more difficult with the bar way overhead. Just a theory.

Gabe Rinaldi
05-11-2006, 08:37 AM
Check out this research study. I have my own opinion on this topic, but I like hearing from other lifters and coaches.

Lincoln Brigham
05-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Good read.

One comment about this study: beware any study that finds no difference between two methods. Odds are good that there was a difference, it's just that the study didn't see it. To quote the study itself, "...differences that do not reach statistical significane my [sic] actually have a meaningful effect in sport results."

With that in mind, note this quote:
"[type-B trajectory] would account for 32% of the lifts sampled. This is a smaller percentage than the findings of Hiskia who found that 42.9% of the 669 snatches sampled in international competition showed type-B trajectory. Garhammer also noted about 45% of the lifts he sampled in international competition... were of the type_b trajectory... lifters in the U.S.A. have had limited success in senior international competitions (4 medals in World Championship and Olympic events since 1976), suggesting that trajectory may be related to performance.

Your lift seems to fall squarely into the "type A" trajectory. "The trajectory resembling path A and its variants have been touted as correct by previous authors. But Hiskia demonstrated that only 8.5% of elite male lifts exhibit this trajectory."

A little off topic - I'm curious about this statement:
"Hiskia (1997) demonstrated typ-B barbell trajectories in many of the medallists at the 1996 Olympic Games:H. Mutlu (54kg), N. Peshalov (59 kg)..."
Peshalov??? Was Hiskia smoking crack? Peshalov jumps forward to receive the bar. He's one of the few elite lifters that does. I've seen it, I swear.

Veronica Carpenter
05-11-2006, 03:57 PM
Gabe, I agree with Lincoln's post. I wouldn't coach anyone to jump backwards - only outwards, but if a person is going to move forward or back - slightly backwards if preferable to front. A person jumping forward is likely to lose the bar behind him and swing the bar out away from the body. Sonetimes the jump forward is to compensate for a weak pull. A slight backward jump - depending on the bar trajectory should meet the bar where it is already wanting to travel.

But, (there's always a but) even elite lifters have there quirks and there are few whose lifts are 100% technically correct if you're efficiency of movement, but it's correct for them and it obviously works.

Gabe Rinaldi
05-11-2006, 05:49 PM
My take is this:

If you look at the data in the study the rearward displacement group has the highest success rate and the highest sinclair value. Forget the statistical significance for a moment and consider any improvement in these values is a good thing.

I also had a talk with a few of the authors of this study at a past NSCA conference and it is my understanding that they believe a type B trajectory is the best.

After watching tons of Ironmind video tapes as well as tapes of elite level lifters in competition I have come to the conclusion that the majority of elite lifters have a type B trajectory.

We could talk for awhile on what exactly causes the type B trajectory, but my feeling is that if you coach certain key positions in the movement, then as technique progresses the majority of lifters will end up with a landing position slightly behind the starting position.

I consider this optimal technique. I do not like it when a lifter artifically jumps back because they think they should. The landing position should be a result of how the barbell is pulled, not a deliberate attempt to place the feet in a certain position.

All that being said, I agree with the statement that no single factor is the sole determinate of weightlifting performance. Some lifters will do better with a different style. It is about figuring out the optimum movement for a given lifter. However, I still consider a type B trajectory with a slight rearward displacement to be ideal for the majority of people.

So, I think my lifts that I taped the other day need a lot of work. Nevermind the fact that I'm not lifting any substantial loads.

I should say that even though I have my own opinions I like hearing what other lifters and coaches say as I am not married to any belief.

Keep the opinions flowin :-)

Veronica Carpenter
05-11-2006, 06:11 PM
I consider this optimal technique. I do not like it when a lifter artifically jumps back because they think they should. The landing position should be a result of how the barbell is pulled, not a deliberate attempt to place the feet in a certain position.

Gabe, this is why I wouldn't teach a backward jump or an exagerated jump as I know some coaches do. That said, you have to evaluate each lifter and coach them the way they need to be coached to better their technique. Not one method will work for everyone. But all good coaches already know that, don't they? :happy:

Lincoln Brigham
05-11-2006, 07:45 PM
Well, turn about is fair play. Here's me from tonight snatching 62.5kg , after doing "Isabel" with 40 kg in 11:20.

My hips rise too fast during the first pull, heels should stay down longer in the second pull, bar path has big frickin loop during the third pull which probably means I shoved my hips into the bar at the end of the second pull. Oh and I'm slow getting under the bar.

Other than that it was a brilliant lift. I made it and was tired as hell. :lame:

Gabe Rinaldi
05-13-2006, 04:54 PM
Gabe, this is why I wouldn't teach a backward jump or an exagerated jump as I know some coaches do. That said, you have to evaluate each lifter and coach them the way they need to be coached to better their technique. Not one method will work for everyone. But all good coaches already know that, don't they?

Agreed, no one method works for everyone. I start with a basic coaching strategy and modify as needed. What I do is tell beginning lifters that I want them to land very slightly behind their starting position. I tell them it will be a result of the way they pull the barbell, not a deliberate attempt to jump back. We will practice the starting and landing position without the bar at first. As an aside I also tell them to stomp their feet - I feel this gets them to move faster. However, as a lifter becomes capable of rapid extension, I do not think a deliberate attempt to stomp the feet is a good thing. It's about starting with a blank canvas and molding from there. My 2 cents...

Gabe Rinaldi
05-13-2006, 05:02 PM
Lincoln,

Overall your lifting technique looks damn good - much better than mine right now. I tried to load your clip in Dartfish, but I'm still learning the software and couldn't get the quicktime clip to load.

Anyway, if I were to be really picky I would say:

The bar goes very slightly forward as it comes off the ground.

Your hips come up just a tad bit too early.

Your weight seems too far forward at the end of the transition phase / beginning of second pull (probably why you're slightly up on your toes).

Your heels come up just a tiny bit at bottom of the squat (function of the pull).

Overall I would say you're just slightly forward during most of the lift.....maybe you need to eat more to counterbalance the weight of the barbell :-)

Lincoln Brigham
05-13-2006, 06:25 PM
Agreed on all points. Most of it I think I could fix by just getting back on my heels further and pulling the bar back when it comes off the ground. Stay more upright and pull the knees back harder, which will be a natural result of being a little more on the heels.

I've got enough pull to make 65kg and more, just need to get the bar in a better location. I need to eat more to be able to stand up with +70kg! Did a 70kg overhead squat while at CFHQ a few weeks ago, but it was hard. Really really close to a limit lift.

Gabe Rinaldi
05-14-2006, 10:07 AM
You've definitely got efficient technique...especially with the small difference in your near max OHS. Keep on rockin...