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Paul Findley
03-08-2007, 01:19 PM
WORK & FAMILY SAFE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYpJsRPgp2g)

This is not me, it is a random Youtube video that demonstrates what I am wondering about.

what should 'normally' happen to the butt at the bottom of the squat. Notice how it tucks under and the arch in the back seems gone.

Is this normal biometrics of being in that position or is something else going on, like a flexibility issue.

I see the same thing with others I lift with, and I don't know if its ok or not.

While we are at it, please critique other elements. Elbows up looks good. I see maybe an over arching of the back at the start, a loss of form at the end, cheating the top, lack of full extension.

Thanks,
Paul

Brian Sullivan
03-08-2007, 03:01 PM
I don't know why he loses his back arch as he drops to the bottome, but maybe he needs to widen his stance a bit. There is a big forward lean as he starts to come up that I think is caused by lack of glute strength. Also at the start of the lift, his pelvis is tilted forward. Looks like weak glutes and tight quads.

David Aguasca
03-08-2007, 06:01 PM
yeah, i noticed the forward lean too, he's probably coming up onto his toes.

i have a lower-back spasm that reoccurs very rarely (when i lift incorrectly) so seeing anyone lose their lordotic arch while lifting heavy gives me the willies.

Paul Findley
03-08-2007, 08:59 PM
So the hips tucking under at the bottom is "wrong"?

David Aguasca
03-08-2007, 09:30 PM
well, yeah. the pelvis tucking under is telling us that he either has tight hamstrings, or his stance is not wide enough and his torso is jamming into his thighs.

it means that he's losing his lordotic lower back arch, which is potentially dangerous and would probably lead to a lower back injury if his form was not corrected eventually...

if you look at this video (work/family safe):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI

you'll see that even with the good depth he's getting, his lower back arch is NEVER compromised at any time during the movement. if it was, his intervertebral discs would probably get demolished by 220 kilos of oly bar.

this doesn't mean that losing the arch at lower weights is acceptable...you can just as easily injure yourself at light weights, thus the importance form even in metcon workouts.

Matthew Swift
03-09-2007, 04:07 AM
David, I agree that the loss of lordatic lower back arch is unacceptable, but my call is that it is not due to tight hammy's but rather the pelvis roll occurs because of tight glutes and iliotibial tract (ITB). Taking the stance wider reduces the stretch on the Glutes/ITB which is why the pelvic rollunder at the bottom is often less pronounced with a wider stance.

Paul, yes rollunder is bad and should be corrected.

Flexibility can corrected by rolling out ITB's using a physio roller or deep tissue massage to release the ITB's and through strengthening and stretching the glutes. Apart from the flexibility issue, the athlete should also be encouraged to "turn on" glutes early in the descend prior to the rollover point, late activation of glutes is also implicated in the rollunder.

I have come across a number of people that have great hammy flexibility and severe rollunders which has convinced me that hammy's are not the cause. I am yet to see someone with rollunder that has loose glutes. If you look at an anatomy chart you will see that glute max "wraps" around the bottom of your pelvis, at the bottom of the squat position, tightness in glute max will draw the bottom of the pelvis forward. My argument is that hammy length remains constant at the bottom of the squat regadless of stance width (to a degree) however glute length varies.

David Aguasca
03-10-2007, 12:06 PM
thanks for the correction, matt. i guess i didn't think it through very well:
i have mediocre ham flexibility, but great glute/ITB flexibility, and i have no roll under even when squatting A2A.

Matthew Swift
03-10-2007, 11:21 PM
The rollunder has been a big topic of discussion at our affiliate. If you had asked me two months ago i would have said hamstrings as well. It is just that I have done some specific work with clients on this problem and became quite intrigued by the aetiology of the problem. You were definately on the right track though thinking posterior chain flexibility.

btw I am jealous of your ITB/Glute flexibility:-)

Anthony Myers
03-12-2007, 10:21 AM
This is off-topic, but...

In regards to the Chinese Olympic Lifter video.

Is that an example of High-bar squatting, or low-bar squatting.

Because he's got so much muscle definition, it should be easy for an expert to see which technique he's using.

thanks, Anthony

Paul Findley
03-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Far from an expert here, all that's left above the bar is neck and skull...so High. Thanks everyone for your comments on the roll-under.

Anthony Myers
03-12-2007, 04:52 PM
thanks Paul

I just needed confirmation for my thoughts.

Anthony

Matthew Swift
03-12-2007, 05:22 PM
I have found a guinea pig to test my theory:-) One of our guys has tight glutes/ITB and a significant rollunder, but otherwise good squat form being an O-Lifter prior to starting CF. He is going to get some myofascial needling done on his glutes and we are going to take some before and after video to see the effect of releasing the glutes on the pelvic roll, keeping other variables as constant as we can. Obviously a very small sample size for the experiment, but guinea pigs are hard to find when neural pain is involved:-)

I will give you guys an update and post the video/pictures when I have some data.

Cheers,
Matt

Paul Findley
03-30-2007, 03:14 PM
Matt,

How is the testing going?

Paul

Matthew Swift
03-30-2007, 09:54 PM
He hasn't had the needling yet, it will probably be after Easter before we get to it but I'll keep you posted. Cheers, Matt

Greg Hamilton
03-31-2007, 12:41 PM
i'm imagining myself (without the initial forward leaning stance) in the vid link paul provided. i'm fairly certain i can feel that rollunder at the bottom of my squat and never really worried about it. other than needling/rolling/deep tissue massage, which are all greek to me and seem over-the-top for your average crossfitter or athlete, can the proper flexibility be gained and the rollunder be corrected by repetition and concentrating on technique over time?

Damien Thompson
04-11-2007, 11:33 PM
Needling is booked in for next wednesday at 3:30.

Cheers,
Damien
AKA 'The Guinea pig'

Paul Findley
04-12-2007, 07:27 AM
Way to take one for the team! Good Luck!

Adam Stanecki
05-14-2007, 11:58 PM
So, what happened?

I agree with Matt's diagnosis. I don't think it's got anything to do with the hamstrings. I see tight ITB in a lot of my clients and they loose form at the bottom of the squat. My immediate remedy is to stop them a little higher than the point where they tuck under. Then it's time for a lot of corrective exercise and manipulation.

Matthew Swift
05-16-2007, 02:55 AM
Hey, sorry I meant to post this up. I have the before and after vids plus some new thinking. When I get a chance over the next day or so I will post it up.

Boris Bachmann
05-31-2007, 07:47 AM
I'm sorry. This is my third time posting this video - I should have posted it here from the git-go.

Here's a video I made about correcting the butt-tuck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq8CWv8UPAI

Anton Emery
07-05-2007, 11:25 AM
Great information here. I now know what it looks like when someone says my pelvis tucks under.