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Charles Applin
12-30-2009, 06:41 AM
I'm wondering what exercises are equivalent (cardio impact mainly, but also time to complete) for the 400m sprint.

Only ones I can think of are:

400m Run
500m Row
50 SDHP (45#)
50 Wallballs (15#, 10ft)
50 Thrusters (45#)
50m Swim (no jump or push offs)
800m Bike (single speed)

Any others, preferably that can be done with standard gym or health club equipment?

Richard Joy
12-30-2009, 08:16 AM
I'd suggest:

box jumps (maybe 50?, not sure how many would be a good 400m sub. I'd say however many you can do in 2 minutes would be a good target)

50 double unders (I feel a little more confident about this number, but if you're good at DUs, you might want to do more. 100 might be more appropriate for some people)

Nic Kirkland
12-30-2009, 11:11 AM
50 bupees

Jesse Emers
12-30-2009, 11:16 AM
50 bupees

Thats a little overkill IMO.

Brian Bedell
12-30-2009, 11:40 AM
Can't you just do any full body exercise for like a minute all out and then stop? row, bike, swim, jumping jacks, burpees, box jumps, thrusters, cj, squats, kips, etc etc.

Stephen Yosypiw
12-30-2009, 08:27 PM
double unders, tuck jumps? I agree with Brian. And 50 burpees would take me at least 2-2:30, and 400m takes me about 1min. Reckon 50 is too high a number, maybe about 30? Unless Nicholas, you're a beast, in which case good for you and keep up the 50 burpees.
Imagine doing the Lumberjack 20 with 50 burpees instead of the 400m run...haha.

Leslie Powell
12-30-2009, 09:05 PM
A fast-ish 500M row takes 1:25-1:30 for a male and will leave most people on the floor gasping for breath.

I'd suggest that a 300 or 400M row makes a better sub for a 400M run if you're looking for similar time frames and impact. It's *a lot* easier to run a 1:15 400 than to row a 1:15 500. One is junior high school track level, the other is world class.

Steven Low
12-30-2009, 09:55 PM
Rowing and running should not be equivalent distances. They're different modalities. I would keep it 500m row to 400m sprint.

Burpees depend on bodyweight. I tried both 400m and 50 burpees out of shape a while ago. 400m can put me out for 20 minutes when I'm out of shape... 50 burpees consecutive as fast as possible can only put me out for about 5-10 minutes on the floor. It depends.

For lower bodyweights 50 burpees is probably too easy.

50 quality tuck jumps would probably be good as well.

Mauricio Leal
12-30-2009, 10:47 PM
Equivalent distance/time in swimming is usually 1/4, so 100m. Those are some good alternatives, but I really don't think anything can be called equivalent to a true 400m sprint. If you're not a good track runner, and the equivalent thing doesn't pretty much break you, it's not a good replacement. Think about the force/impulse generated in each stride, and the stride rate/frequency for similar exercise comparisons. A 100m swimming sprint I think comes close as far as feeling, but the power output in running is noticeably higher for the similar durations/intensities. Also, because running is so leg centric the lactic acid build up is keeeeler.

Edit: I think a good way to determine the validity of an alternative would be to take zoomed in face photos in the last 10-15 seconds of the "effort" and carefully compare and contrast the visible pain.:rofl:

Sam Ser
12-30-2009, 11:56 PM
Rowing and running should not be equivalent distances. They're different modalities. I would keep it 500m row to 400m sprint.

Burpees depend on bodyweight. I tried both 400m and 50 burpees out of shape a while ago. 400m can put me out for 20 minutes when I'm out of shape... 50 burpees consecutive as fast as possible can only put me out for about 5-10 minutes on the floor. It depends.

For lower bodyweights 50 burpees is probably too easy.

50 quality tuck jumps would probably be good as well.

wouldn't 50 burpees take about twice as long as a 400m run?

even the best times i've seen for 50 burpees are in the low 2 minute range (i'm jealous!), and it seems to me that that kind of performer would also be able to run 400m in about a minute.

also, as fast as a 2-minute performance is for 50 burpees, the movement is still much slower than a sprint.

can this really equate?

Anthony Ricci
12-31-2009, 08:46 AM
Hey -Just run the 400m-just sayin

Nathan Kulas
12-31-2009, 09:05 AM
He said standard gym - not many of which have an indoor track - he's left with a treadmill that has to "get up to speed" and even still maxes out at 12 MPH.

So far as rowing goes - I would agree that 500m is over kill. Whereas I might suggest a 1000m row for an 800m (still, probably not), a 500m row will definitely take more work, recovery and time than a 400m run. The rower gives you an advantage of full-body that lends itself better to longer distances. For instance, my 5000m row time is currently faster than my 5000m run time - because I can sustain a higher percentage of my max speed for the entire duration. However, I couldn't pull hard enough to match my fastest 400m time in 400m on the row - the accelaration is much slower - more resistance/inertia to overcome. A 1:20 500m row translates to 64 seconds (same pace) on the 400m row - I don't think I could produce enough power to sustain a 1:20 500m row - however, I can definitely produce a 64 second 400m time - and thats only limited by my current middle distance conditioning - I used to produce a much faster 400m - in line with a 65 second 500m - which has got to be impossible on a rower - but certainly attainable for a run.

Brian Bedell
12-31-2009, 09:22 AM
Most standard gyms have a door. So that you can go outside and run.

Nathan Kulas
12-31-2009, 10:23 AM
Very true. How many of them have a measured quarter mile loop outside the door? Or perhaps a 200m out-and-back measurement?
hmmm....
Sure, you can measure it yourself - but how many people have a wheel for that? You can estimate based on stride length, etc - but its not exact. How many gyms (or towns) are going to let you spray paint the sidewalk at the turn-around point if there isn't a sufficient landmark?

Doesn't always work.

Ramsey Abdulrahim
12-31-2009, 02:28 PM
I've substituted 40 box jumps for 400m runs a few times.

Very high cycle box jumps (maybe even on a short box like only 20 inch) would seem to simulate running well because you're using the same muscles and having a high turnover. I never quite went all out on box jumps before (for safety reasons) but 400m sprints always seem more taxing to me than the equivalent time spent box jumping... maybe if one went all out on the jumps but then I still don't imagine a 400m run being equivalent to 'speed-hopping'.

Leslie Powell
12-31-2009, 02:44 PM
For what it's worth, a 65 second 500M row would require you to sustain about 1275 Watts for the duration. Not likely to happen : )

Charles Applin
01-01-2010, 12:08 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

Nathan Kulas has it correct, at least in my case. On the base in Djibouti, there is a door to the gym, but you're not on roads safe to sprint due to pedestrian, vehicle and construction traffic all on that base. Same goes when I return to Yokosuka, which has the gym on the fourth floor located in the industrial area. Then there's when I'm on ship. So yes, that leaves the treadmill when it comes to quarter mile sprints which can quickly be grabbed the instant you step off to do the 15 overhead squats.

My main thinking on this is to create reasonable substitutes for the running portions on crossfit that give you the cardio. This could be all out sprints (say 6 rounds with 2 minute rests between) where the time should be between 60 and 90 seconds. Medium distances (4 types for 3 rounds or the filthy fifty) to substitute 5k runs and even the long distance types (4x distance for each type of six different exercises such as 200m swim, 1 mile rune, 2k row, 200 thrusters, 2 mile bike, 200 KB swings.) to substitute 10k runs which can average 2 to 3 minutes per round 400m run equivalent.

I'm not against long distance running, as I used that as my main training prior to CrossFit going so far as to run (well, hobble) a marathon. I do think it's too easy to lean on running for longer distances.

Also, looking at this list seems more like the filthy fifty selections, which in fact got me thinking about this three years ago as the F50 did feel like a 5k run. However, I know that some of the filthy fifty can be done extremely fast depending on your conditioning and you're starting fresh. Double unders and box jumps come to mind here. Others will just take too long, such as the lunge and burpees.

The list again

400m Run
500m Row
50 SDHP (45#, shin to chin)
40 Wallballs (15#, 10ft)
50 Thrusters (45#)
50m Swim (no jump or push offs, 100m swim was recommended change)
800m Bike (single speed)

Other recommended exercises.

50 Double unders (can be done very fast though)
50 box jumps 18" (can be done very fast)
25 burpees (50 was recommended but others said it'd take too long)
50 KB Swings (35#, overhead)
50 Jumping pull-ups (Bar at wrist height overhead, Chest to Bar pull-ups)

Any others exercises or recommend changes (such as reps or pounds or distance)?

PS: What would the outcry be if at the Crossfit games they had bikes and swimming as part of the endurance test? Seems like a great reason to include them (especially swimming, can't get much more primal than that).

Marcel Zwinger
01-01-2010, 03:44 AM
those are great ideas!

have used a few of them myself.

It all depends on how long the distance is and how often it is repeated. but that's just my take on it.

I'd not substitude 1000 SDHP's for a 10K run ;)

Doug Blankenship
01-01-2010, 04:48 AM
Sub 25 burpees for every 400 meters, it works well.

Sam Ser
01-01-2010, 06:57 AM
Most standard gyms have a door. So that you can go outside and run.


:notworth:

Jonathan A Wood
01-01-2010, 09:09 AM
I have experimented with a few subs for the 400m b/c so times I have problems getting to the gym and because sometimes I like to change it up a bit. Heres what I have tried in the past.

Ball Slams 25# for 50 reps
10m shuttle run for 1 min 20 sec
Step ups with a 20# or 40# pack on to a 18 inch bench for 50 reps
fly burpees for 50 meters

The step ups are good 5k or 10k also some that I have never tried but heard work fairly well are.

Split Jumps 100 reps (50 each leg)
Sled drags 135# for 50m

Hope this helped

Joe Cebulski
01-03-2010, 02:46 PM
Hi everyone. I might be a decent resource for this question. Retired in 2008 from the Olympic Decathlon. Ran the 100M (10.97), 400M (49.0), and Mile (4:29).

Whenever you attempt to compare one event to another, you must recognize that you are sizing up chemical pathways, more than time on a clock (although time on the clock helps to determine what pathways you have moved through). Phophoralytive, Glycolytic, Oxidative. The 400M moves the human body through distinct energy production systems (6 phases actually) until there is nothing left but oxidative hanging on for dear life and unforgivingly moving one foot ahead of the other. The 400M allows for absolutely no rest phase, and is a full body power motion. The upper body controls the legs, and the core transmits power back and forth as efficiently as possible while maintaining coordination between the two. The challenge with effective replication of this is to do something that allows no break whatsoever in a full body explosive exercise. Burpees are good, but i can't do them fast enough to fully blow up the glycolytic, and oxidative (aerobic) can keep me going to perpetuity. Rowing is an unbelievable full body workout, but has a built in rest phase every stroke. 500M @ 35-40 s/m w/ damper @ 10 wattage near 500 has netted me a 1:26, but i was able to walk away from the machine and converse with friends. Completing the 400M makes you catholic. Because you finish the race and enter purgatory :) You're dead to the world, unable to even produce thoughts...at best you can make gutteral primordal sounds to express the pain you are in.

As an athlete I trained with some of the best athletes in the world, under some of the best coaches in the world. My final years I was under Dan Pfaff...a true genius in the sport. He introduced me to a machine that still sends shivers down my spine, and turns my stomach when I see one. The Schwinn Airdyne. Yes, that's right, that silly fan bike we all remember from Aunt Trudy's basement as kids can best replicate the 400M run without having to walk out the door of your box. We would use it as our "plan b" if we were injured and couldn't train on the track. For instance, I had a strained Achilles one time and used the Airdyne for almost three weeks to keep my chemistry online before a big competition. Went to the meet and matched my lifetime best in the 400M.

Do a good warmup, then get on one and pedal at absolute full velocity, using the arms to push the handles as well, for about 45-60 seconds. Do not sit, but actually stand on the pedals and "run". If it has RPM's available on the monitor, have a friend check it out. We would keep the RPM's near 160, and not below 130. The distance traveled and time on the bike pretty well matched up if I remember correctly.

If anyone has the kahuna's to try it...let me know how it goes!!!

Joe

Jonathan A Wood
01-08-2010, 09:03 AM
Joe I can not thank you enough for this sub, it is one of the best ones yet. I got snowed in today and couldn't make it to the gym I had to do mt cf wod and cfe wod together (didn't have time to split them up) so I used my airdyne for it standing like you said.

The only thing was I forgot how many RPMs you had said so I guessed it was around 190 to 180. Now that I have came back to reread the post it said 160 to 150 which would have been a little more doable (I could only maintain the 190 to 180 for the first two rounds). When I got my rest I could hardly catch my breath. It is definitely the best sub I have found.

Thanks again, Jon

Eugene Goldashkin
01-08-2010, 12:05 PM
for those of us that do not have the airdyne(even though you can get them cheap on craigs) i would think the second best sub would be DU's. what i would do is go out on a track run the 400meters as fast as possible, get that time and then in that time frame do as many DU's as possible. After you know your number just do that much to sub for 400m. This would only work if your DU's are solid and you can keep it consistant for that duration of time. For me DU produce the same effect as running, i can possibly run a 400m in 55sec. If you use this method i would recheck every few months to see if your DU's still match if they dont then just reajust

Michael Ingley
01-08-2010, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the feedback.
especially swimming, can't get much more primal than that

definitely, running and swimming are the most basic things, would love to see some swimming at the games.

Greg Privitera
01-08-2010, 12:16 PM
Great post Joe! I hope to read more from you, stick around.

Leslie Powell
01-08-2010, 08:20 PM
FWIW, 500 Watts on the Concept 2 nets you a 1:28.8 (coincidentally my best time). You need 550 Watts to get 1:26. Fairly big difference, actually.

Matth Challoner
01-09-2010, 02:54 AM
Most standard gyms have a door. So that you can go outside and run.

:rofl::rofl:

Joe Cebulski
01-09-2010, 07:50 PM
Leslie,

Thanks for the correction. I guess I was pulling more watts :) I wasn't paying attention to that while I rowed...just had a friend tell me that I was over 500 watts. Or were you suggestion that I didn't really row the 1:26??? Joe

Leslie Powell
01-09-2010, 08:30 PM
The former. 1:26 isn't off in crazy-talk land. I'm not sure that it's an elite time for you, though, given your history, which might explain why you weren't too gassed by it.

Matt Thacker
01-09-2010, 08:42 PM
Leslie,

Thanks for the correction. I guess I was pulling more watts :) I wasn't paying attention to that while I rowed...just had a friend tell me that I was over 500 watts. Or were you suggestion that I didn't really row the 1:26??? Joe


I did a 1:32 (I think) 500 Meter row and wouldn't have been able to tell you the Watts to save my life. One of the hardest workouts I have ever done in under 2 minutes.

Leslie Powell
01-09-2010, 09:24 PM
1:32 works out to 450 Watts for the duration of the row. That assumes that you row it at an even pace. If you row like most people (i.e. parts at 1:31 or 1:30, parts at 1:33 or 1:34) then it takes more watts to get the same time.

The math for converting pace to watts is pretty straightforward, and there are online calculators that do it.

Charles Applin
01-18-2010, 06:23 AM
Thanks again for all the input. Like I wrote before, this was in part to look for things to help my metcon besides just running a lot. I began my little experiment last week so here's what it is and my first week results.

It's a 12 week experiment which I'll dub "CrossFit Miles". The first 6 to 8 weeks are building up the CrossFit Miles, with the last 6 to 12 weeks tweaking the experiment. After that, I'll begin to re-incorporate the normal WODs into my routine.

A single CrossFit Mile (CFM) would be 4 random selections of those 400m run equivalents. For each multiple CFM I'll be running that day, I can do an single type of an exercise. So if I'm doing 3 CFM's I will not do more that 3x 400m run for that day while if I'm doing 6 CFM's then I could do up to 150 box jumps (50 x 6).

I'll do a slow build up of 1 CFM three times 1st week with a 1.25 CFM on Saturday. 2nd week will 1.25 CFM three days and a 1.75 CFM this Saturday. Each week, I just raise the amount ultimately getting 3 CFM's (a 5km equivalent) for three days and a 6 CFM (a 10km equivalent) on a Saturday. On the Saturday long CFMs I also include any exercises that weren't picked on the previous runs that week due to the random nature of it all.

Here are the Exercises I use:

1. Run 400m
2. Bike 1200m
3. Row 500m
4. Jump PU 25x
5. Dbl Unders 50x
6. Thrusters 45# 50x
7. Box Jmps 20 50x
8. Burpees 25x
9. KB Swings 35# 50x

Here's my first week results (yeah, the times are bad). After this, I'll post the weekly results in the WOD forum.

Week 1 - Age 34, Ht 68", Wt 220#
Jan. 11: Thrust, Dbl Und, Burp, Row -13m 26s
Jan. 12: Dbl Und, Burp, Box Jmp, Row - 11m 45s
Jan. 13: Bike, Row, Thrust, KB Sw - 09m 55s

Jan. 15: 5km - 27m 40s (My unit did a 5km run that day, so I'm including for reference)
Jan. 16: Bike, Thrust, Run, Dbl Und, Jmp PU - 12m 18s

Matt Payne
01-18-2010, 09:46 AM
The former. 1:26 isn't off in crazy-talk land. I'm not sure that it's an elite time for you, though, given your history, which might explain why you weren't too gassed by it.

Assuming Joe is a heavy weight in rowing class that time would be in the top 25 times in the world this year according to concept 2's online world ranking. That time is pretty Elite for the 500m. ;)

Joe Cebulski
01-18-2010, 07:28 PM
Charles,

I have really had fun following this thread. I think it's great to be so creative in your thinking about Crossfit and running. Isn't that one of the great things about it...thinking outside the box (or base or ship) :)

So let me disclaimer this first by saying that I am not totally 100% sure what it is you are trying to accomplish. Not sure if you are trying to get in long distance running shape, or long distance CF shape. I'm not even sure what the difference is. Ha LOL

You have asked for 400M equivalents, but then you are going to use them in succession to train for a 10K equivalent. At first glance, it appears that there is some dichotomy in that. A 400M and a 10K are completely different energy systems. 400M being phosphagenic/glycolytic and 10K being oxidative. Were you hoping to string them together and maintain 400M chemistry, or were you assuming that in time the intensity would taper to 10k pace? Maybe I'm begging the question since I know that after 30 (or so) seconds you are out of phosphagen and a few minutes later you are past glycolytic and into oxidative whether you want to be or not. Anyway...I digress...

BTW, Matt...thanks for the encouragement. I was feeling kinda rained on as I thought I had rowed pretty @#$& hard to get that 1:26 for 500M. But at least leslie's comments motivated me, and a few days ago I pulled a 1:25 at an average of like 565 watts. So glad to know that it is a decent time! Also did Fight Gone Bad as Rxed today and did a "judged and penalized" (by a coworker) 410pts. Any ideas on how that stacks up?

I have struggled with the swimming idea and crossfit games. For me, now living in the fridged North, I can't swim outside for half the year, and in order to do it indoors, I have to get a membership to a globogym. Seems ironic. There's ground everywhere...there's only water in some places.

Charles Applin
01-19-2010, 12:10 AM
Joe, There's a number of things I thought about going into this. Part of it is remembering how well running did help my fitness 8 years ago. Part of it is seeing how well CrossFit helps LSD endurance without having to do LSD. Part of it was finally seeing that 2003 article on CrossFit programming. Part of it was the recent Louie Simmons videos. Part of it was hearing Milo say he runs or rows 5k almost everyday.

Yeah, I was looking for things to string together that'll still have similar times as the intensity tapers down for the LSD. I didn't want to just do only Run/Bike/Row combinations. When I start tweaking the experiment, then there'll be similar to 8 rnds of 400m w/ 2min or 4 rnds 800m w/ 2 min rests or 1 round of 5km, but I'll do these random events insteads of it being just a sprint/run.

Then it's a matter of putting these as substitute for Metcons in CrossFit WODs. Based on the Metcon portion of the CrossFit programming, either of these three are the all out Metcon tests which come up about once every 12 day cycle so all three should be experienced every 36 days.

Thanks for the advice again.

Leslie Powell
01-19-2010, 10:23 AM
The Concept 2 online ratings are kind of, um, non-representative (also worth noting that the correlation between a 500M time and 2000M time isn't too strong, so a lot of rowers don't focus on it as much). The last I've seen, the 500M world record is sub 1:15...

Matt Payne
01-19-2010, 08:28 PM
The Concept 2 online ratings are kind of, um, non-representative (also worth noting that the correlation between a 500M time and 2000M time isn't too strong, so a lot of rowers don't focus on it as much). The last I've seen, the 500M world record is sub 1:15...

Umm..Leslie, why are they not representative? They are tracked, posted times? For those that don't post...we'll i guess that is a choice so we may never know what true"respresentative" looks like. Cool. Not really sure what you are implying with this but these are posted times, the population is quite large.. Who led you to believe that the 500m time does not have a strong correlate to the 2k? Or is that your own opinion? I know many rowers who use the 500m as a focus in training... At any rate Joe's time is VERY good even with the world record at 1:15. :)

Leslie Powell
01-19-2010, 09:04 PM
You do realize that my 1:28.8 puts me in the top 70 in the Concept 2 rankings for my age group (40-49).

For some perspective on that, I've never rowed crew, rarely row more than 500 meters, have never rowed more than 5000M in one session, am not especially tall or strong. I'm a forty-something guy of average height and weight who jumps on the rower for ten minutes or so a couple times a week. I have been through C2's training program and have had friends who did row crew.

I don't want to run down Joe's time at all. Just note that for an olympic level athlete, it's nothing astonishing. Being top 25 (or 70) on the C2 rankings means just that, and nothing more.

Leslie Powell
01-19-2010, 09:09 PM
Should add that you'll see strong/tall guys with *zero* rowing experience pull crazy 500M times. Terrible technique, chain slamming all over the place, machine flying around the room, and the final time is still sub 1:30. It's annoying!

Ewen Roth
01-20-2010, 09:05 AM
Not to drag this thread too much off topic, but I have to agree with Leslie. The C2 online rankings don't even scratch the surface of what erg rankings would be if all the best rowers in the world bothered to post a time. They're fine as a general reference, but about as reliable and representative as looking at the daily WOD comments.

As for Joe, his 1:25 is akin to Lance Armstrong running a sub 3-hour marathon two years ago. It's a fine time for an international athlete with no history in the sport, but with a little technical work and time on the erg, Joe should be able to cut a few seconds off that. A 1:25 500m row is about as elite as a 500lb deadlift or 12.0 100m run. A score of 410 at FGB is actually "more elite", in my opinion, and confirms my belief that with some practice, Joe should be able to bring is 500m row time down pretty easily.



To answer the original question, another good running sub is jump rope while running in place. You can do a minute straight and try to increase the number of total skips/strides, or do a given number of strides (based on a real 400m run or a 1 minute rope skip) and try to improve your time.

Adam Acosta
01-20-2010, 01:05 PM
The winner of the recent OC Crossfit Throwdown, which featured mostly the top CrossFitters from Orange County, but a few from Los Angeles and further out of the area as well, has a Fight Gone Bad PR of 445. For comparison's sake, I'm sure he'll at least make regionals.

John Otterstedt
01-20-2010, 03:50 PM
I might not be thinking about this the right way, but if I were looking for a 400m equivalent in, for example, rowing.....then I would time myself running 400 meters and row for the same time. Assuming that I am working at the same intensity, I figure that is about as good as I can do when trying to find an equivalent, right?

On a related note, all of your times are depressing me. I can get down to a 1:38 pace for a few strokes, but there is no way I can maintain that for a full 500 meters. I can't even imagine getting down to the 1:20's.

Matt Payne
01-20-2010, 07:43 PM
Well I think we agree that 1:25 is an Elite time as is a 500lb deadlift Elite. Sure with practice Joe will be even better. As far as the rankings? Sure it may not represent all the best rowers but then again how do we ever find out the fastest FRAN time or best FGB score unless someone posts it somewhere? Same thing. Post your time or????

As far as the original post ..Rowing to me is by far the best sub for 400m run.

Joe Cebulski
01-20-2010, 09:49 PM
Charles...I am totally with you and understand. I think it's really good thinking and a great blend of using CF to train for LSD. Maybe the CF purists wouldn't like it...but CF should never be purist though should it :) I'll be sure to check your log to follow the progress and see what you/we learn from it. Don't you just love being a guinea pig!!

John, the only problem with that thinking is that rowing has a 2:1 or 3:1 rest to work ratio. Sprinting has no rest phase. In other words, sprinting has higher phosphagenic and glycolytic ATP depletion per second as compared to rowing. The rest phase of rowing allows for help from the oxidative side of the equation. No matter how hard you row...it will NOT replicate a 400M sprint. Take a rowing machine, put pedals and independent rowing handles on it and now you have a 400M comparison. It's called an Schwinn Airdyne!!

Speaking of being a guinea pig...guess I am too. A couple of months into crossfit and the learning curve continues its upward path. All things considered, I think i am going to side with Leslie about my rowing times. Partially because they keep falling every time I row, and partially because I have looked at the CRASH B results (which is for 2000M). I rowed a 3:08 for 1000M tonight before heading home. Put me in a room with a bunch of other dudes cranking away and I maybe could have sustained that for another 1000. Puts me at 6:16ish or outside the top 60 at CRASH B. http://www.concept2.com/us/racing/crashb/crashb2009/results2009.asp?race=1 WFS Tonight was the 6th time I have rowed the 1000. Started at 3:32...and have dropped consistently to the 3:08. What will I row a year from now?...time will tell. Got a long way to go before I'm Elite.

However...as far as the 1:25 500M goes...I'd put it more at a 550lb deadlift and 11 sec 100. Way easier to deadlift 500lbs than get to a 1:25. Have only done 3 DL workouts in my life (this month) and did 450lbs for sets of 4. PB in cleans of 325lbs. I coached girls in college who ran 12 second 100M. 1:25 row is 88% of the 500M world record. 11 seconds in the 100M is 88% of the world record. Fight Gone bad: anyone know what the best "judged' score has been. 500?? What has Mikko done?

Oh, and about Mikko. I watched the Sisu documentary with my wife and started laughing halfway through. You see the Finns...they are all about humility, but they are also about psychological warfare...and kicking your butt! Tero Pitkamaki is a world champion javelin thrower from Finland. When warming up, he will stand throw a jav like 230ft and then shake his head like he was disappointed, while walking back to his bag saying things like "maybe I shouldn't have done that long run and heavy cleans workout last night." All the while knowing full well that NO ONE on the track can do what he just did. Understand this: Mikko and his friend/coach KNOW that he is a BAD ***! The Sisu documentary was like Lance's book "Its Not About the Bike". Mikko planned his days while on camera so that it would look nearly impossible to train like him. All the while shrugging and smiling and feigning moderate satisfaction. People don't think they can beat a god/legend. Convince them you are one and you have them beat before you even step up to the first event at the CF champs in July. I love it!

Leslie Powell
01-20-2010, 10:19 PM
Man, I hate to keep raining on your parade, but ...

Rowing, unlike running, involves significant drag, which means that there's a cube relationship between power and speed.

To put it in numbers, the power required to row a 1:15 500M is 830 Watts across 1:15.

The power required to row a 1:25 500M is 570 Watts across 1:25. You're *far* from 88% of the world record (which is actually lower than 1:15).

It's pretty clear that with some work you're going to row with a *lot* more power than you currently do, and at that point you might (maybe) change your mind about the relative difficulty of rowing vs. running.

Pretty sure that should be my last post on this! If you google physics of rowing, there's a really amazing site that goes over all this stuff in excruciating detail.

Ewen Roth
01-21-2010, 07:41 AM
Well I think we agree that 1:25 is an Elite time as is a 500lb deadlift Elite.

I think you misunderstood me. A 500lb DL is NOT elite for men weighing more than 165lbs. It's a nice weight to be pulling. But not elite. You can check out these Rippetoe-approved standards (wfs) http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/DeadliftStandards.html , keeping in mind that those "elite" weights are baseline figures that will get you nowhere fast in a powerlifting meet.

A 1:25 500m row for heavyweight men between the ages of 18 and 40 is NOT elite. Period.

We need to stop throwing the word "elite" around. :shrug: "Very good for a CrossFitter" is usually what people are trying to say.

Joe, I have no doubt you're a better athlete than 90% of people on this board, with a true appreciation for what being "elite" means and requires in your sport(s) and in general. I'm also sure you will keep bringing your rowing times down --quickly, at first. Let us know how it goes. I also liked your different perspective on the Mikko documentary.

Over and out.

Matt Payne
01-21-2010, 07:09 PM
I think you misunderstood me. A 500lb DL is NOT elite for men weighing more than 165lbs. It's a nice weight to be pulling. But not elite. You can check out these Rippetoe-approved standards (wfs) http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/DeadliftStandards.html , keeping in mind that those "elite" weights are baseline figures that will get you nowhere fast in a powerlifting meet.

A 1:25 500m row for heavyweight men between the ages of 18 and 40 is NOT elite. Period.

We need to stop throwing the word "elite" around. :shrug: "Very good for a CrossFitter" is usually what people are trying to say.

Joe, I have no doubt you're a better athlete than 90% of people on this board, with a true appreciation for what being "elite" means and requires in your sport(s) and in general. I'm also sure you will keep bringing your rowing times down --quickly, at first. Let us know how it goes. I also liked your different perspective on the Mikko documentary.

Over and out.

Ok......hmmmm. I agree that "Elite" is very subjective. I am guilty of assuming we were talking about crossfitters...due to this being a Crossfit board.:shrug:

At any rate, with Joe's experience I am sure he does have a true appreciation for what "Elite" means and requires.

As far as a 1:25 row...I think you should follow your own advice in the same vein and stop saying that it is not "Elite". Period. :D


And Joe, after all is said and done...nice work on the rowing! Great sub for a 400m run!!!:)

Jonathan A Wood
05-06-2010, 06:43 AM
Joe hi I read an tried your sub for the 400m run by using an airdyne I used it a couple times an found it to a great sub. I wanted to know though if you could also use it to sub for running with crossfit endurance?

The reason I ask is I have gotten pf from to many bad landings while practicing double unders. I know that the way for it to heal is to rest but I have entered in a marathon in steptember that I have been training for with cfe for the past 5 months with great sucess. I would just back out but ever since I have started cf I wanted to run a marathon an this will be my last chance for awhile because of school. My doc said that I could use this sub until my foot is completely healed. Then I will have to continue my training on grass or rubber track.

If you could help me with this it would a great help.
Thank you jon