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Jacob Vohs
02-25-2008, 08:24 PM
So today I felt that my power cleans were decent for the first time. I used the hook grip for the first time today as well. Let me know what you think. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

w/fs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=daB-wIE1Pc0

Grant Scalf
02-25-2008, 09:31 PM
Since this is a light weight for you, you are getting away with a slow second pull. I think once you get past the knees with a heavier weight you will need to pull more aggressively and get your torso more upright. Other than that, it looks like pretty good explosion. Are you shoulder blades tight and pinched together? It is hard to tell with that hoody.

Arden Cogar Jr.
02-26-2008, 08:13 AM
I agree, I think the weight is too light for you to see real form break down.

At first blush:
1. I think you're donkey kick isn't really necessary. Go up on your toes or jump after you've extended violently from the power position (shoulders in front of the bar and knees slightly infront of the bar about four inches above the knees - also called the scoop) before you violently shrug and do whatever with your feet.
2. I think the bar path gravitates away from your body a bit much after it leaves the power position. - keep it as close to your body as you can.
3. think speed. I don't think you've got the bar moving as fast as you can move it.

All the best,
Arden

Boris Bachmann
02-26-2008, 09:42 AM
You're not fully extending the hips.

Maximilian Mormont
02-26-2008, 10:24 AM
Looks good. When you catch it in that quarter front squat position, sit back a little more. It looks like your knees are still in front of your toes, so push your hips back a little. The bar is floating away from you a little, so stay in your heels all the way through the second pull. After you go to get set for your next set, re-hook your grip when the bar is still on your shoulders. It should save you time and energy. Is your hand grip right on the lines of the bar, or do you space it out one thumb width off the line? Good extension, but be sure to be aggressive every time. I think if you are a little more aggressive in that second pull, your extension would be more explosive. Also, the bar should go back down the same way it comes up. So rotate your elbows down and up, instead of down and back. Keep up the good work!

Jacob Vohs
02-26-2008, 10:48 AM
Looks good. When you catch it in that quarter front squat position, sit back a little more. It looks like your knees are still in front of your toes, so push your hips back a little. The bar is floating away from you a little, so stay in your heels all the way through the second pull. After you go to get set for your next set, re-hook your grip when the bar is still on your shoulders. It should save you time and energy. Is your hand grip right on the lines of the bar, or do you space it out one thumb width off the line? Good extension, but be sure to be aggressive every time. I think if you are a little more aggressive in that second pull, your extension would be more explosive. Also, the bar should go back down the same way it comes up. So rotate your elbows down and up, instead of down and back. Keep up the good work!

I space my grip out one thumb width off the line. So are you saying I need to stand more upright before beginning the jump and shrug movement? I'm trying to use the form Mark Rippetoe describes in Starting Strength. When practicing the jumping position as Rippetoe says to do, he has you do it with the hips back.

Scott Mahn
02-26-2008, 11:30 AM
There are far more experience eyes here than mine, but what I see is a tendency for you to bring the bar to your hips rather than exploding your hips to the bar.

I think you need to begin your jump sooner, and that jump should include a fuller, more forward extension of the hips (extending all the way to the bar) followed immediately by a strong shrug upward from the traps, followed immediately by the racking of the bar.

So my simplified coaching cue would be to "jump/shrug a little earlier," timed so that your upper thighs meet the bar while the bar is accelerating upwards.

Maximilian Mormont
02-26-2008, 11:55 AM
So your hand position is fine. Your body position from the first pull (the shins) to the second pull (mid-thigh) is good. I'm saying when you go into your second pull it looks like your slowing it down! So, stop thinking about it and be aggressive.:ranting2: bring your hip to the bar. Activate your lats (push the bar in), so the bar does not float away from you. Remember to land in your heels knees back! After catch (land) squat it up before you move your feet back to the pulling (jump) position. Film 7 sets of 3 reps or 10x2/ moving up every time if you miss the weight or its to tough don't go up. Post it and lets see what starts to happen.... Your lifts look good, keep up the hard work!!!

Jacob Vohs
02-26-2008, 04:03 PM
So your hand position is fine. Your body position from the first pull (the shins) to the second pull (mid-thigh) is good. I'm saying when you go into your second pull it looks like your slowing it down! So, stop thinking about it and be aggressive.:ranting2: bring your hip to the bar. Activate your lats (push the bar in), so the bar does not float away from you. Remember to land in your heels knees back! After catch (land) squat it up before you move your feet back to the pulling (jump) position. Film 7 sets of 3 reps or 10x2/ moving up every time if you miss the weight or its to tough don't go up. Post it and lets see what starts to happen.... Your lifts look good, keep up the hard work!!!

I'm doing Starting Strength right now which does 3 sets of 5 but I've read some people doing 5 sets of 3 instead. Next workout I'll do sets of 3 and keep increasing until I fail at that weight. I'll video the last couple sets of 3 and post them.

Just to make sure I'm getting what people are saying here's what I'm thinking I need to do: Bring the bar from the shins to the thighs and then to the rack position without ever slowing down, bring my hips to the bar and keep the bar close, and land in the heels more. What is exactly meant by bring the hips to the bar? When doing the jump how should my body be, should my hips be forward at the jumping point or back. The bar should be mid-thigh at the jumping position, right? This would cause my hips to still be back when I start the jump so I'm not sure what you mean by bring the hips to the bar and then jump and shrug.

Edit - I think I just realized that when talking about bringing the hips to the bar, you're talking about bringing the hips to the bar during the jump, right?

Scott Mahn
02-26-2008, 06:04 PM
What is exactly meant by bring the hips to the bar?

WFS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaKMDzsak9U


Look at his point of impact with the bar. It's about mid to upper thigh, right?

So lets assume you are working with a weight that's heavy enough that it wants to travel straight up, not back towards you. If your butt is back when the bar passes over the knee, and the bar remains in a straight vertical path, how would you get it to meet you at mid/upper thigh while also accelerating the bar upwards and somewhat back toward your shoulders?

You'd need to explode your hips forward to meet the bar (the start of the jump,) extend your ankles (essentially the end of the jump) then shrug it back and up with your shoulders while flipping your elbows around to form the shelf for it to land on.

Review SS:BBT. You'll see Rip starts you off with the bar at the point of contact with the thighs (pg 176, figure 6-9.) You're supposed to maintain that relationship between the bar and the thighs even when starting with the bar on the floor. It requires the double knee bend, which means you move the knees out of the way of the bar until the bar is over the knees, then you re-bend the knee prior to the jump.

Check out page 184, figure 6-18. see the shins straighten as the bar comes off the floor, then, when the bar is past the knee, the knee re-bends briefly to reload the legs to jump. That is when you lightly graze the thighs with the bar while jumping.

check out the clean pulls and power clean:

WFS http://www.aceathlete.com/hatch/video.htm

Jacob Vohs
02-26-2008, 07:47 PM
Alright, I understand how to fix it, next time I'll see what I can do. Do you think that as I use a weight that is harder to do, my form will be better? The weight I used in the video is pretty light still for me, does form get better with a weight that's closer to the max weight.

Jacob Vohs
02-26-2008, 08:50 PM
I agree, I think the weight is too light for you to see real form break down.

At first blush:
1. I think you're donkey kick isn't really necessary. Go up on your toes or jump after you've extended violently from the power position (shoulders in front of the bar and knees slightly infront of the bar about four inches above the knees - also called the scoop) before you violently shrug and do whatever with your feet.
2. I think the bar path gravitates away from your body a bit much after it leaves the power position. - keep it as close to your body as you can.
3. think speed. I don't think you've got the bar moving as fast as you can move it.

All the best,
Arden

Anyway to work on the scoop?

Scott Mahn
02-27-2008, 11:36 AM
Anyway to work on the scoop?


WFS http://www.metroweightlifting.com/order.html

Money well spent.

Boris Bachmann
02-27-2008, 12:26 PM
WFS http://www.metroweightlifting.com/order.html

Money well spent.Who does the instruction in those videos? The advertisements aren't very descriptive...

Ben Kimmerle
02-27-2008, 12:42 PM
Do you think that as I use a weight that is harder to do, my form will be better? The weight I used in the video is pretty light still for me, does form get better with a weight that's closer to the max weight.


No. That's the reason you should post videos of higher weight because it will show all the little problems with your form so they'll be easier to recognize.

Scott Mahn
02-27-2008, 03:41 PM
Who does the instruction in those videos? The advertisements aren't very descriptive...

World Class Coaching LLC. This Company sells 2 videos created by Steve Miller, the coach who started USA Weightlifting's Superheavyweight Olympian and American Recordholder, Shane Hamman, National Champion and World Team member, Loreen Briner-Miller, and numerous martial arts champions. One video is dedicated to teaching the snatch and the other the clean. Both go into great detail about the steps involved in Miller's own unique coaching approach and his views regarding optimal technique.

Jacob Vohs
02-27-2008, 03:51 PM
What about just doing the hang position/jumping position to the transition to the jump (Aka Scoop) and then the jump shrug. Would that be an effective way of training to get the jump off the toes down?

Boris Bachmann
02-27-2008, 06:50 PM
World Class Coaching LLC. This Company sells 2 videos created by Steve Miller, the coach who started USA Weightlifting's Superheavyweight Olympian and American Recordholder, Shane Hamman, National Champion and World Team member, Loreen Briner-Miller, and numerous martial arts champions. One video is dedicated to teaching the snatch and the other the clean. Both go into great detail about the steps involved in Miller's own unique coaching approach and his views regarding optimal technique.
Thank you.

Jacob Vohs
02-29-2008, 10:44 PM
Took a new video of some power cleans with a heavier weight but I know I can still do more weight. Let me know what you think. I focused more on extending the hips and jumping.

w/fs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CrO3cLPm5E

Maximilian Mormont
03-01-2008, 07:07 AM
It looks better! I like what I'm seeing!!! Catch it firmly in that quarter squat. Also get those @#^%$*! elbows up higher. If they're not parallel in the power position there going to be down in the deep squat. I like the more aggressive approach but be patient. I know, what do I want? Patience or aggression? I want a slow pick off the ground, once the bar passes your knees then explode. But over all great JOB!!!

Scott Mahn
03-01-2008, 08:51 AM
Yup, much better. You're starting your explosion sooner and extending more fully. You added 40 lbs and your form looks better than before.