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Ashley Rogers
04-19-2005, 03:56 PM
From looking at the CrossFit certification pictures, it looks like bodybuilding buffs are starting to turn CrossFit for their physical fitness needs.

I wish more gyms were set up for CrossFit style of training.

bill fox
04-20-2005, 05:18 AM
You know that's an interesting observation but here's my theory. As more people at the certs have been doing CF longer prior to the cert you're going to see more muscle at the cert. Judging by my 3 weeks or so I would guess I'll putting on 5 lbs (chest, arms and legs)over the next few months doing CF.

Matt Gagliardi
04-20-2005, 05:55 AM
I would tend to agree with Bill. Most bodybuilders I know (and I know a few) verge on being petrified of any kind of cardiovascular/"metabolic" work beyond literally walking on the treadmill. They would run screaming from CF.

Frank C Ollis
04-20-2005, 09:04 AM
Ashley,
If you look closely at the proportions, you will notice a difference between the muscular CrossFit folks, and body builders.

That difference is, we look proportioned, and they don't. Most of us tend to look normal in street clothes, body builders tend to look like a "fat guy in a little shirt".

John Walsh
04-20-2005, 09:06 AM
Agreed. Real bodybuilders of the drug using/fake tan variety have no interest in CF because it is not the most efficient way to hypertrophy. Bodybuilding on drugs is the quickest way to get big. I have one hardcore BB type friend and he would consider CF-ers too skinny and not freaky enough. He hates our workouts because they are too taxing. He trains hard and is strong but in a much different way.

Eugene R. Allen
04-20-2005, 10:32 AM
Remember my buddy Glen the British bodybuilder turned Thai boxer turned boxer? He's the guy I mentioned in another thread who wears his belt throughout the workout and slipped on wrist wraps when he thought pullups were coming because his back is so strong his grip will give out before he has fully worked his back. He has done two workouts with me and both times was on the verge of a Pukie encounter. None of the rest of us could even see Pukie off in the distance.

Glen has not been back for a couple weeks. Me thinks his body doth protest too much. He is very strong but he continues to do the standard bodybuilder split routines. Remember that training in a segmented fashion develops a segmentated capacity. I have yet to be able to convince him of that. Old habits die hard. CrossFit is hard too, really hard, makes you taste penny's hard. He told me that after FGB he was reminded of some of his really brutal Thai boxing workouts. He is teaching at the police academy now and is very busy but he can make time. I think he is avoiding me...avoiding CF.

I hope he comes back, I love watching him struggle...er, develop.

Eric Moffit
04-20-2005, 11:31 AM
Shakespeare...nice. only Eugene could tie Hamlet to bodybuilders doing CrossFit. well done.

Keith Wittenstein
04-20-2005, 11:33 AM
Matt said, "I would tend to agree with Bill. Most bodybuilders I know (and I know a few) verge on being petrified of any kind of cardiovascular/"metabolic" work beyond literally walking on the treadmill. They would run screaming from CF."

I agree except for that last part about running screaming. They would probably stand still and scream...less taxing.

There are a lot big guys out there. Strong guys. I think a large segment of the population that is "athletic" have turned to bodybuilding because they don't know better. Most of us didn't know better at some point. Gradually they are finding their way here.

The great thing is that Coach is doing his thing and not comprimising for the sake of selling out. People come to do the work...or try to do the work. Many get weeded out.

Most people don't see the utility in training hard or learning complex or functional movements. They'll get weeded out too thru natural selection.

Larry Lindenman
04-21-2005, 05:11 AM
Great points Keith. This program could eat people. Bodyduilding magazines killed strength training in the 80's and 90's. You were either a endurance athlete (Mark Allen...the most fit man) or your only choice was to hit the mass market bodybuilding magazines. What the magazines didn't tell you (and still don't), is that the workout's of the "stars" were fuled by boatloads of drugs, most of these guys have no idea how to teach someone to weight train, frankly most of these guys couldn't put five words together. Crossfit usually involves some deprograming and reeducation.

Frank C Ollis
04-21-2005, 08:14 AM
Larry,
Well, that sucks for me. You know Marines can never be deprogrammed!

Ron Nelson
04-22-2005, 10:50 AM
Glen's fate lies not in the stars dear Eugene, but in himself! (Julius Ceaser reference, huh, huh!!)
/crickets/

I've seen some of the HQ crew close up, as have many of you. I can tell you, a guy like Michael Street could be a bodybuilder if he chose to. The dude is ripped, naturally, through the Zone and CF. So, the thought of BB creeping in isn't far fetched with proper diet and elite fitness. Problem is, as has been stated, our WOD is a "muscle wasting program" as our friend Zeb would say. You don't get "cannonball delts" and slabs of abs. You get a "one piece monster!"
As for those "trainers to the stars;" I'm consistently amazed when I see they have nothing new to say other than high intensity cardio and really light weights to "tone and firm and burn tons of fat!" I saw that Usher (he's a popular singer my daughter tells me- she's in love with the dude :-0) uses a personal trainer who has him do, get this, mostly bodyweight exercises including handstand push ups!! I saw it with mine own eyes!
Who'd a thunk it?

Stanley Kunnathu
04-22-2005, 11:45 AM
Matt Furey says Usher was doing Hindu (dive bomber) pushups.

Ben Kaminski
04-22-2005, 02:32 PM
Usher can do backflips and the splits...
No comment on Matt Furey... :lol:

Beth Moscov
04-22-2005, 03:52 PM
I am wondering about Ashley's original post to this thread - about large, built folks coming over to crossfit. I was wondering if there is a hidden assumption that crossfit doesn't build muscle? As long as I have been involved (not long though) folks have been well muscled and big. But there has been this lurking idea that crossfit only builds thin guys and you can't get big. Take a look at a bunch of back threads to see this assumption at work. I don't think we are getting more bodybuilders, I think we are seeing folks who do crossfit for what they are - strong guys and gals.

Matt Gagliardi
04-22-2005, 04:19 PM
Beth, I think you're correct in your thinking that we're seeing some muscular CF folks. But there is a BIG difference between what a "successful" male bodybuilder would look like vs. a "successful" male CF'er.

Bodybuilders will sacrifice virtually everything (sanity included) in an effort to gain "mass"...then they'll spend a couple of weeks trying to lean out to promote maximum vascularity. The use of drugs is commonly accepted. Also, I don't think you could find a bodybuilder on this planet that could run a competitive 10K. It's all about form over function.

On the other hand, it seems to me that CF is all about function over form. Form happens to come along for the ride in many cases...but not in the way that a serious bodybuilder would consider acceptable.

Given that I've yet to see a pair of Zubaz pants in any pictures from CFHQ, I'm not ready to accept that bodybuilders have converted just yet. :wink:

Eric Moffit
04-22-2005, 04:22 PM
"bodybuilders be not proud"...i know, i know...its awful.

i totally agree about CrossFit breeding monsters. having muscle is assumed if you really want to excel in the 10 areas of fitness. plus, what do you think all the MUSCLE-ups are for?!? screw function, its all about the muscle!...sorry, another bad one. off to go do bicep curls and wrist rolls in the squat rack as penance.

Matt Gagliardi
04-22-2005, 04:31 PM
PS-

Want to know something I found really scary? Even the "fitness" competitions that you'll occasionally see (primarly women doing some kind of "aerobic" routine) are infested with drugs. I went out on a couple of dates with a "fitness" competitor...right up until she told me about how she (and her competitors) leaned out for competitions. Let's just say the word "clenbuterol" came up.

bill fox
04-22-2005, 06:57 PM
Matts correct.

I'm pretty "muscular" at 6' say 195. There was guy at the RKC built like a truck that was 6' 225, I mean this guy was scary loking. A 6' pro bodybuilder weighs 275 ripped. I was at Mandalay Bay on my honeymoon during the Olympia a few years ago (a coincidence that made laying at the pool a hoot). Those guys are disgusting, out of breath, sweating, and can't walk - and that's on the elevator.

CF makes studs not freaks,

Tom Brose
04-22-2005, 08:14 PM
Several points:
1. Bill, you are a full CF convert

2. I didn't think there were any "bodybuilder types" at the CrossFit cert. Most of the males wouldnt stick out at a large gym, until they started to work out. There were some guys there with more of a S&C background. Honestly, I was one of the bigger, and totally least capable of the assorted athletes there. That in itself was humbling and pretty cool at the same time.

Ron Nelson
04-25-2005, 11:11 AM
*throws away old Zubaz pants and ripped "Max Muscle" tank top*
OK, I'm ready for the group picture!!!

Barry Cooper
04-25-2005, 11:47 AM
Random unconnected thoughts: I'm 250, but I don't look like it. There are a lot of guys that are bigger than me in my gym. I'm just thick, and my arms aren't big, at least not proportionately.

I think I could bodybuild, if I chose to. I think I have good genetics.

Presteroids, most bodybuilders did a lot of O-lifting and gymnastics.

Matt Gagliardi
04-25-2005, 05:27 PM
Presteroids, most bodybuilders did a lot of O-lifting and gymnastics.

I take it you're referring to a time before steroids were discovered...as opposed to before X person started taking steroids and became a "bodybuilder".

I know a couple of BBs...I feel safe in saying that neither of them have ever been gymnasts, and I've never seen either of them do an O-lift.

Travis Hall
04-25-2005, 09:02 PM
this post reminds me of that scene in fight club where the 'hero(s)' are standing on the bus looking at the calvin klien poster: "is that what a real man looks like?"

at my gym (well its a self defense school) we do crossfit type workouts (- the weights) and no one really 'bulks' up, but like crossfit, the power to size ratio is unbelievable.

personnely, i find with body building you sacrifice functionality for swollen muscles. there are exceptions of course. i've heard of old school body builders that could do one arm pull-ups with weight added- that is a different story, altogether though!

Tim Morrison
04-26-2005, 09:44 AM
I always have the urge to bring balance into what I see as overgeneralized 'bodybuilding' stereotyping by crossfiters which can make us project cultish overzealousness or irrationality.
I am in full agreement that the majority of what the stereotyped bodybuilding model is about is silly from a functional and appearance standpoint.
However for many that prioritize hypertrophy there is a large continuum of training protocols many of which (although do often contain isolation type accessory exercises) ARE based in functionally sound compound/Oly type movements that along with the overeating/supplementation extremes utilized do provide the endocrine response for drug free muscular growth.They unfortunately get lumped in with the bodybuilder lunkheads...(because 'building their bodies' is their agenda!)
T-nation.com for example has an extraordinary archive of programs and authors who offer hypertrophy based training ideas who DO train many extraordinarily high functioning athletes.
The term 'bodybuilding' alas is impossible to use without much justifyable ridicule though!

Matt Gagliardi
04-26-2005, 10:13 AM
Tim, I think you make a valid point with your last post. Unfortunately I think we have a tendency to "lump" people into groups (hey, it's human nature). I know I do it.

I think the people you refer to who are pursuing hypertrophy via "other means" (my choice of words)...i.e. Oly lifts, etc. would often be loath to identify themselves as bodybuilders. Personally, I don't see hypertrophy in and of itself being "bodybuilding". There a many reasons to want to get bigger (sports performance being one of them). I think most of use are using a definition of "bodybuilder" that boils down to someone looking to grow, etc. for no reason other than to be bigger. Although even then, truthfully, I have no problem with "real" bodybuilders. I don't need to understand their goal...only that they have one. I respect their dedication to training and nutrition. In a lot of ways, they ("real" bodybuilders) are similar to dedicated CF athletes. I do have to say they tend to lose me with the drug angle though.

I think the catagory that most of us actually have issues with are the pseudo-bodybuilders and/or the "social" bodybuilders. The kind of folks who are at the gym taking up space and not really getting anywhere. It just seems more often than not that they're following a "bodybuilder" protocol in their "program"...so we identify them as such.

Speaking of which...I witnessed one of my all-time funny scenes at the gym last night. I went up for a bit of "active rest", and stopped in to visit with my buddy (a trainer) after some hoop. He and I watched a guy do (I swear to God this is true) a 50 minute arm workout. Now...I'll give him all the credit in the world, his arms look pretty good. The funny thing was his legs. His thighs were the size of my upper arms, and his calves were no bigger around than my wrists (and I have really narrow wrists). He looked like he was walking around on drinking straws.

Steven Stackpole
04-26-2005, 10:17 AM
Matt
Thats called the "all arm workout"
Never hear of it??
:-)

Kawika Harbottle
04-26-2005, 10:18 AM
I throw my support behind T-Nation for offering more than hypertrophic programs. Training for strength becomes size over there. Oh and the supplements and drug info. Addresses this issue through actual research, rather than repeat the "evening news". There are smart people over there running the show from different walks of the training arena. Most of them former bodybuilders turned smarter, which I think helps their cred so much more for their readers. For example, how many times we see a trainer in a gym that looks like never picked up their bodyweight on a bar before? Many. I'm just happy to have that place as another thoughrough resource of nutrition, metabolic conditioning, and strength & athletic training.

Matt Gagliardi
04-26-2005, 10:20 AM
Matt
Thats called the "all arm workout"
Never hear of it??

Well, I know that there have been studies done regarding so-called "unilateral" workouts...were you can receive benefit in the left arm (for example) by training the right arm.

But I've yet to see one that showed leg development from working arms. Too bad though...this guy could use it.

Actually, IMO the very worst part was that the arm guy had to be in his 40s...he really should know better at this point.

Yeah, I know...I'm a critical SOB, and I'm probably going to Hell.

John Walsh
04-26-2005, 11:56 AM
Ah yes the Martini glass build! Those are the guys that wear sweatpants 365 days a year no matter how hot it is. These are guys that insist that their legs are big enough/strong enough from jogging on the treadmill or that squats are bad for the knees. At my old gym BHG (Before my Home Gym) they had a yearly “strength contest” that consisted of the following lifts: Bench press, barbell curl, seated behind the neck press and lat pulldown. As much as I hated the place I could write a book of funny stories about things I saw.

Tim Morrison
04-26-2005, 05:45 PM
Man...good insightful clarifications on this issue.......
Question:
some of the strongmen of old were surprisingly cut and I'm wondering what 'metabolic' type of activity/nutrition would account for that..(obviously they didn't do ''cardio'' (god I hate that meaningless word!)

William Hunter
04-26-2005, 05:51 PM
I don't know but I do know one thing, there was a heck of a lot less procesed food in the world.

Matt Gagliardi
04-26-2005, 06:22 PM
It would definitely be interesting to see the training/nutrition log of some of the old-school "strongmen". I suspect Will has hit on one of the big factors...much, much less processed food.

John Frazer
04-27-2005, 10:46 AM
I saw one of those "martini glass" guys at the gym recently, too. Man, they can do a lot of wrist curls.

I stuck with my L-pullups and max. single thrusters -- 25% increase since February. Only got a few funny looks on the thrusters, and people don't seem to notice L-pullups at all.

John

Brian Hand
04-27-2005, 11:06 AM
It would definitely be interesting to see the training/nutrition log of some of the old-school "strongmen".

http://www.naturalstrength.com/history/saxontrio.html

Incidentally I tried something very close to this diet in college and it did not work out.

William Hunter
04-27-2005, 11:37 AM
OK, so the Saxons were just freaks, plain and simple. That was NOT a guide to healthy living. Lots of white flour, sugar and beer...nice.

Graham Hayes
04-27-2005, 01:31 PM
"health drink"...dark lager beer (or Dublin stout) mixed with Holland gin, the yolk of an egg and plenty of sugar.

Looks like Larry has a rival for his post workout chocalate milk idea:rofl:

Larry Lindenman
04-29-2005, 08:34 AM
Intresting post. When I think "bodybuilding", or demonize it, I am referring to the "sport" of bodybuilding, not the training process. So I agree, T-Nation has some good and some great information for the weight trainer...I believe they also deride the "sport" of bodybuilding. I have a hard time getting over the shaving, tanning, metalic speedo, oiled up looking posing on stage to music thing; not to mention the boat load of drugs, I can't walk 15 steps without breathing hard thing.

Steve Shafley
04-29-2005, 02:32 PM
I am all for lifting weights and getting bigger, whether or not you call yourself a bodybuilder or a crossfitter.

It sure beats watching TV and eating a bag of potato chips. It beats smoking 2-3 packs a day and drinking a twelve of beer at night.

I want to be bigger and stronger than 99% of the people I meet. Go ahead and tell me it's because I wasn't breast fed long enough as a baby, or because my "equipment" is undersized, or that I have some deep seated need for physical armor to mirror my psychological armor.

I don't care. When I want to lean out and lose the muscle I've worked hard to put on since 1987, then I'll take up long distance running again. Right now I'll stick to the heavy work, with the occasional WOD or metabolic conditioning session and call it bueno.

}

Ashley Rogers
04-30-2005, 04:49 PM
I was watching a TV special several months ago that was about bodybuilding. The story did mention that bodybuilders in the 1940's-1960's did gymnastic moves and climb lots of stairs to build their legs.

I highly suspect that bodybuilders were actually more "functional" back in the day than they are now.

Michael Keller
05-02-2005, 06:59 PM
Many years ago when I started training, I did the typical bodybuilder's workout and continued in that vein for years. Took the supplements like creatine and got pretty strong at about 5'10 and 200 lbs. As I age (turning 45 in a couple of months) I find that functional strength is more important to me than big, showy muscles, though I have to admit that I still like the "big" look. I struggle with the desire to include worthless isolation movements into my routine and occaisionally stray from the CrossFit way. I never got into the whole shave your body-oil it up-wear a speedo and strut around thing, but I do like bigger muscles. I know that they are not as functional and I am not any stronger and I guess it's a psychological thing, but I go through phases where I want to do a bodybuilder type workout. I'm a recovering bodybuilder-type workout guy, and I need help!! :rofl:

Not really, I always find my way back to the real deal, which is CrossFit. There is no doubt that it makes more sense and is infinitely more functional and practical.

Ben Gorman
05-05-2005, 08:36 AM
Hi, I'm new, (my intro post is over on the "starting" page). I've been following this thread with interest. It seems like a lot of folks here came to crossfit with at least some wight training background (thus they already had a good amount of muscle on their frames, and then found they preferred crossfit to traditional lifting. My question is this: I'm a pretty skinny guy (6'3", 185lb). Will my physique limit my ability to get "good" at crossfit?- Should I do some kind of hypertrophy program prior to doing crossfit, or will crossfit add the muscle I need? Thanks.

Chris Forbis
05-05-2005, 10:50 AM
Ben, I've gained about 10 pounds since I've started. Still skinny (6'3", 175ish), but I have gained.

David Wood
05-05-2005, 10:55 AM
Ben, the evidence seems to suggest that CrossFit will "normalize" your body's muscle and fat mass.

CrossFit includes a very significant amount of moving your own bodyweight around. If maximizing that ability requires losing fat (or even unnecessary muscle), it will tend to happen (my case, lost fat). If maximizing that ability requires gaining more muscle (probably your case), that will happen too.

Michael Keller
05-06-2005, 04:01 PM
Hi Ben, welcome aboard. In a way, the fact that you are thin will help rather than hurt you.Your muscular and cardiovascular endurance will build faster, and the muscle will come. Just jump right in and have at it.

Tim Morrison
05-06-2005, 05:01 PM
I think THE bottom line physical measure to use to determine success with crossfit (or perhaps 'fitness in general') is....'strength-bodyweight' ratio.
Look at Kelly Moore: 145ish weight (guess) doing Diane in 3min plus....at the 225 deadlift requirement ...JEEZ....Seriously I think even pro bodybuilders would be hard pressed to match that...
Many bodybuilders have fair S-BW ratio's at best.

Ross Greenberg
05-06-2005, 06:57 PM
Tim,
Power to bodyweight ratio seems to be a better measure of "fitness in general" and indicator of success with crossfit than strength to bodyweight. Strength is great, but work/time seems to be the most important thing here.

Kelly Moore
05-06-2005, 11:43 PM
Hi Tim,

Once upon a time, 20 some years ago, I weighed 145#. I'm now a hearty 117#....man, you know how to hurt a girl! :-)

Matt Gagliardi
05-07-2005, 03:33 AM
Considering your performance at Diane yesterday Kelly, that is just simply amazing. DLs at 225 (for speed) weighing 117. You are a badass.

Chris Forbis
05-07-2005, 05:23 AM
No joke. It's one thing to see Greg A's time on Diane... but when Kelly does it at nearly double BW on the deads... :blush:

As soon as I start doing Diane with that BW factor on the deads (330 lbs) in less than 4 minutes, I'll let you know.

Kelly Moore
05-07-2005, 09:42 AM
Thanks! One thing is for certain...I can't run, throw, catch or do anything "athletic", but I can deadlift!

Michael Keller
05-07-2005, 03:58 PM
That's awesome Kelly! Wow.

Kalen Meine
05-09-2005, 07:58 AM
Ben's comment was a few posts ago. but I think it's a point that needs to get hammered again. If you can't do the WODs now, the closer your workout gets to the parameters of the WOD, the more yourt body will adapt, through hypertrophy or loss of fat or whatever it takes, to those conditions. You don't need to engage in constant preparation for the WOD (which should be your preparation for physical life in general) Your body is smart- it will adapt in whatever way is proper for the loads placed on it. If you need to get bigger to complete the WODs, complete the WOD as best you can, and you will get bigger by the proper amount. It's a yin-yang kinda thing :happy:

Michael Rutherford
05-09-2005, 08:25 AM
I have read the book and looked at the program. There is some good stuff on core conditioning and balance. Beyond that it's not going to make my top 10 recommended reads. It's hard for me to believe that Troy Polamalu was able to improve his bull rush technique from balancing on a foam roller.

Charles L. Graves
05-12-2005, 12:18 PM
I posted this question in a different section but it may be more appropriate here. Has any one combined Crossfit with ProbodX? Personally, I have found the ProbodX system to provide with a very restorative active recovery. Charles

Lynne Pitts
05-12-2005, 03:25 PM
Charles, I'll leave your question here and delete it from the other section; please don't cross-post.
thanks.

Bruce Kocher
05-12-2005, 07:10 PM
I have about the same opinion as Mr. Rutherford. I read the book, bought some of the equipment and invested a month or so in the workouts.

The protocol is not valueless and is unlikely to cause injury but I did not get very strong, fit, flexible or improve any other measure of athletism. I'm sure that under the authors' personal guidance I would have made greater progress, but that doesn't mean much to me.

I just didn't feel that the program was worth the time and energy to study/learn and execute. No doubt balance and stabilizers are important but that's all that ProbodX seems to offer. I have no doubt that a six month Crossfit trainee will fair better in an intense ProbodX workout than a six month ProbodX trainee would perform with one of the 'girls'.

With that said I'm spending more time on my Indo Board, Swill ball and working with a Slackline but these are before and after my Crossfit workouts.

To make a long response even longer. I believe that ProbodX is fine but limited and most of the value can be had within the Crossfit exercises (particularly the gymnastics emphasis movements) or as short warm up/cool down periods with balance toys.

Best regards,
Bruce

Michael Halbfish
05-12-2005, 08:16 PM
Rut, what are your top 10 recommended reads?

I have read the book and looked at the program. There is some good stuff on core conditioning and balance. Beyond that it's not going to make my top 10 recommended reads. It's hard for me to believe that Troy Polamalu was able to improve his bull rush technique from balancing on a foam roller.

Michael Halbfish
05-12-2005, 08:17 PM
I'd be real interested in anyone's results doing this because I've been planning on adding some Probodx to supplement my Crossfit training

Michael Rutherford
05-13-2005, 08:06 AM
Mike -

The list is dynamic. It's ever changing.

As a maturing athlete, I'm more convinced that the name of the game is recovery. I have been looking back over much of THE ZONE , NATURAL HORMONAL ENHANCEMENT and THE PALEO DIET.

The merits of swinging a KB vs. a DB is of no significance at this point.

On a non athletic thread I link the stuff Dan Pink writes too. http://danpink.com/

Tim Morrison
05-15-2005, 08:53 AM
SO sorry Kelly!! I've never seen you. That 145 was a vision of pure power-packed muscle of course!

Tim Morrison
05-15-2005, 08:56 AM
I've always thought that the competitive Olympic weightlifters (especially the lighter class ones) would post some incredible Crossfit numbers.

Kelly Moore
05-16-2005, 05:55 AM
No offense taken Tim! I only wish I was 145# of muscle along with being 5'8" or more....

Kenneth Urakawa
05-16-2005, 09:34 PM
WOW!
Pardon me as I bow in the general direction of Madison, WI.

Kenneth Urakawa
05-16-2005, 09:48 PM
I've spent some ProBodX time as well, and it did improve my shoulder flexibility/stability a little. I like using some of the techniques as a warm-up/cool-down.
I just always walked away from the workouts feeling like I should have been picking up something heavy...sort of unfulfilled, if you will. Just my $.02