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View Full Version : Snatch and C&J


Peter Terry Haas
01-24-2008, 08:38 AM
I would appreciate any criticism of my snatch and C&J technique that was posted on the main site (http://www.crossfit247.com)(wfs) today, including why I missed the lifts that I did. Please be brutal.

My thoughts:
Snatch: Need to get under it faster?
C&J: I was a little tired, and it was really ugly. I know the rack sucked and I came onto my toes when I dipped for the jerk.

Gant Grimes
01-24-2008, 08:56 AM
Nice lifts. Keep your arms straight on the snatch.

Brandon Oto
01-24-2008, 09:18 AM
You could donkey kick less on the snatch, and yes, get under a bit faster. Not why you lost it, though; you had room to spare.

Work on the jerk.

Peter Terry Haas
01-24-2008, 10:44 AM
Nice lifts. Keep your arms straight on the snatch.

When/Where? At the top (I buckled a bit under the 200) or on the second pull?

Arden Cogar Jr.
01-24-2008, 12:08 PM
I slowed you down with my VLC media player. You're doing really well.

First off, I love the old bassett hound. Perfect mascot for any good gym. Then again, he or she may not be old. That's the beauty of the bassett.

On the snatch, the first thing I notice is your set up. I notice the same thing with the clean set up. You really need to tighten the bejesus out of the lats and keep that bar close to you all the way up. From the angle, I think you're keeping your shoulders in front of the bar really well, but I think you could be a bit tighter with the tris and lats to pull the bar into you.

You're pulling nicely. I can't tell from the angle if your hips and shoudlers are rising at the same speed with the first pull.

Second pull, on both lifts, looks good in my opinion. You're getting good extension.

It just seems as though it's near ME and you're not accustomed to handling that type of weight above your head. If you want to move that up, I suggest you do some Behind the Neck Snatch grip push presses and hold the those types of weights at arms length to get yourself accustomed to holding something heavy at arms length in an awkward position.

I think you're clean looked pretty good. The set up was the only real thing. You seemed to catch the bar with your torso slightly forward.

The only real criticism I have of your jerk is your elbow position. You didn't bring your elbows under the bar during the 1st dip. Your eblows stayed in the rack position. It's more of flexibilty thing, but if you can get those elbows under the bar sooner, you'll be more stable over the head.

You're doing really well.

I should have prefaced all of this by saying I am in no way qualified to really coach anyone on these movements, but I'm learning.

All the best,
Arden

Guest
01-24-2008, 02:48 PM
1. Start stance - I'd move your feet out a bit. Right under the hips. You're inside the hips. This isn't "Wrong", but it's awkward and in theory will not allow the greatest possible power production.

2. Start position - This is definitely a rippetoe-influenced start as you state. He and I have gone back and forth on this very issue. I'd get your hips a little lower. I won't get into the details because it's a huge can of worms. If you stick with your current start position, fine, but you'll need to be even more careful to prevent leading with your hips. You set your start with the hips about as high as they possibly should be - but the first thing that happens is your hips rise and your shoulders stay behind. This brings your torso even closer to horizontal, and sets you up for that forward weight shift I'll get to below. That first pull should be leg extension only - the angle of the back should remain the same.

3. Are you consciously thinking of scooping? If so, knock it off. Scoop comes in a little early. I'd like to see you stay over the bar a little longer. This early scoop in concert with the hip leading brings the weight forward on your feet way too early. The moment your knees start moving forward, your heels are unloaded. We need you to stay back with the weight centered at the front of the heel (i.e. just behind mid foot). When the DKB occurs (naturally), the weight will shift forward on your feet slightly. If it's already forward before this, it will shift WAY too far forward, which is what happens here.

4. Pretty good bar path - light contact with the thighs to the crease of the hips, and you keep it close as you pull under.

5. You do enter the final extension with a little elbow flexion. Not huge, but we want none at all. Think of stretching your arms like rubber bands as you pull so that when you hit the peak of extension in the 2nd pull, they're spring-loaded and snap you underneath.

6. Like has been said, need a much more aggressive pull under the bar. Needs to be just as fast and aggressive as your upward acceleration. In combination with this, you need a more aggressive drive up on the bar as you bring it into the slot. That overhead position is soft in both the shoulders and elbows. Get the shoulder blades fully retracted, then elevated, and push up hard immediately after turning it over to get and keep the elbows locked.

7. Jumping forward a little in order to receive the bar. This is just a result of #3. Keep the weight back.

Nice work, and glad the CA WOD helped so much.

Arden Cogar Jr.
01-24-2008, 06:40 PM
Wow.....just wow. I wish I knew as much as you've forgotten. :D

All the best,
Arden

1. Start stance - I'd move your feet out a bit. Right under the hips. You're inside the hips. This isn't "Wrong", but it's awkward and in theory will not allow the greatest possible power production.

2. Start position - This is definitely a rippetoe-influenced start as you state. He and I have gone back and forth on this very issue. I'd get your hips a little lower. I won't get into the details because it's a huge can of worms. If you stick with your current start position, fine, but you'll need to be even more careful to prevent leading with your hips. You set your start with the hips about as high as they possibly should be - but the first thing that happens is your hips rise and your shoulders stay behind. This brings your torso even closer to horizontal, and sets you up for that forward weight shift I'll get to below. That first pull should be leg extension only - the angle of the back should remain the same.

3. Are you consciously thinking of scooping? If so, knock it off. Scoop comes in a little early. I'd like to see you stay over the bar a little longer. This early scoop in concert with the hip leading brings the weight forward on your feet way too early. The moment your knees start moving forward, your heels are unloaded. We need you to stay back with the weight centered at the front of the heel (i.e. just behind mid foot). When the DKB occurs (naturally), the weight will shift forward on your feet slightly. If it's already forward before this, it will shift WAY too far forward, which is what happens here.

4. Pretty good bar path - light contact with the thighs to the crease of the hips, and you keep it close as you pull under.

5. You do enter the final extension with a little elbow flexion. Not huge, but we want none at all. Think of stretching your arms like rubber bands as you pull so that when you hit the peak of extension in the 2nd pull, they're spring-loaded and snap you underneath.

6. Like has been said, need a much more aggressive pull under the bar. Needs to be just as fast and aggressive as your upward acceleration. In combination with this, you need a more aggressive drive up on the bar as you bring it into the slot. That overhead position is soft in both the shoulders and elbows. Get the shoulder blades fully retracted, then elevated, and push up hard immediately after turning it over to get and keep the elbows locked.

7. Jumping forward a little in order to receive the bar. This is just a result of #3. Keep the weight back.

Nice work, and glad the CA WOD helped so much.

Peter Terry Haas
01-24-2008, 08:09 PM
Greg,
Thanks for the thorough critique.

1. Start stance - Will do. This has been suggested to me before, and on the video I noticed that I actually shift my feet out a bit as a hit the second pull. I'll start with them wider.

2. Start position - Up until those attempts I was starting a bit lower. Coach Rip had me start up a bit higher. I think I understand his rationale behind it, but if you would like to PM me I'd love to hear your rationale. I hear you 100% on not letting the hips raise faster than the shoulders. Is the solution to do more snatch-grip deadlifts and focus on keeping the back angle set?

3. Are you consciously thinking of scooping? Actually no, all I'm thinking about is moving fast when I get above the knees. Apparently I'm initiating the scoop a little early. If I'm hearing you right, I should stay over the bar a bit longer (and come up above the knees a little higher) before I hit my second pull. I conceptualize this as keeping my chest over the bar longer. Is that OK?

4. Pretty good bar path - Thanks.

5. Dammit, I had no idea I was doing this until I watched the video. I think in my mind I'm telling myself its OK to bend the arms as soon as I initiate the second pull, instead of at full hip extension. I'll practice and try to think of it the way you described.

6. Like has been said, need a much more aggressive pull under the bar. Ok, how should I work on this? Muscle snatch + tall snatch?

In combination with this, you need a more aggressive drive up on the bar as you bring it into the slot. Heavy snatch balances? Snatch grip push presses and holds as Arden suggested?

Thanks again for the critique and all the hard work you have put in on the CA WOD.

Guest
01-24-2008, 08:20 PM
2. That whole messy explanation may be near future article material, so keep an eye out for that. Just remember that a snatch/clean is not a deadlift despite looking similar initially. The rules don't apply exactly the same. The priority is the positioning for the 2nd pull, not the first. The purpose of the first is to bring you into the best possible position for the second, and accordingly, the mechanics for that initial pull may be compromised somewhat. But again, it's not a DL and this doesn't matter within reason.

3. Yes, stay over it a bit longer. Part of this is probably that your weight is a little forward on the feet too soon.

6. Heavy muscle snatches will develop that turnover strength. Tall snatches will force the speed. You may want to do them both separately and as a complex.

OHS and snatch balances are both good for that overhead strength.

Steve Liberati
01-25-2008, 04:47 AM
This is an extremely useful thread b/t Greg's comments, Greg's avatar, Peter's video on the main page, and the other critiques.

Good stuff!