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Brandon Oto
01-22-2008, 08:54 AM
Trying to work on my running form with the Pose approach. Think I'm getting the general idea, but, well, it hurts, so I'm not really sure. Thoughts?

(No audio, by the way, but the slapping is pretty loud when I run.)

http://degreesofclarity.com/misc/crossfit/pose_form_1-22-08.mov wfs

Patrick Donnelly
01-22-2008, 10:59 AM
You can't see the feet with the camera angle, but take a look at your landing positions.

Brandon Oto
01-23-2008, 04:50 AM
That's what qualifies as landing in front of my body? My foot's right under my chin...

Nick Cummings
01-23-2008, 08:45 AM
Under your chin =! under your body. Think of the line you can draw from the bar in a squat to the middle of your foot. If your foot was out under your chin you would be off balance!

Brandon Oto
01-23-2008, 10:53 AM
Well, the reason my upper body is in front of my lower body (creating that distinction) is because I'm bent slightly at the hips. Is this the problem? Should I try and straighten myself out? I'm trying to "lean" and my body's having a hard time seeing how to do that without bending.

Tim Donahey
01-23-2008, 11:57 AM
My understanding is that you keep your hips straight, even thrust them forward a little bit to maintain hip/shoulder alignment, this will help keep your legs bent as you run too. And your feet are supposed to land under your hips, not under your chin.

I'm not an expert though, so please feel free to step up and correct me, you correctors out there.

Jeff Northrop
01-23-2008, 01:49 PM
Well, the reason my upper body is in front of my lower body (creating that distinction) is because I'm bent slightly at the hips. Is this the problem? Should I try and straighten myself out? I'm trying to "lean" and my body's having a hard time seeing how to do that without bending.

Think of leaning forward at the ankles, not the hips. You want your hips neutral, not in either a posterior or anterior tilt in relation to your spine. The lean forward in POSE is very subtle.

Brandon Oto
01-23-2008, 02:05 PM
Is there a drill or something for finding the ankle lean? I'm totally unable to figure it out.

Darren Zega
01-23-2008, 03:25 PM
The easiest way is to get a general sensation of falling from the POSE stance:

http://www.posetech.com/library/SIB/047sib_fig4-sm.gif

Get into this position, balancing on one foot and lean forward gradually until you fall forward (near a wall so you can catch yourself, I hope). The exact point at which you begin to fall is the correct place to put your foot underneath you. Right now, you're landing in front of your body which requires you to slow yourself down, step over your foot, and push off.

Use this falling from a POSE stance drill to get the feeling of falling for every step.

Brandon Oto
01-23-2008, 04:14 PM
Thanks Darren, I'll give it a shot.

Patrick Donnelly
01-23-2008, 06:54 PM
Is there a drill or something for finding the ankle lean? I'm totally unable to figure it out.
Try popping out 500 consecutive air squats before you run... You definitely will want to take the load off your quads and utilize your hamstrings correctly after that. I swear, some of my best formed running was at the end of the 50% Murphs. Granted, I've only done 50% Murph twice, and my running was slow both times, but it was done correctly.


The butt-kick running drill is a good one too... Running is a less exaggerated form of that.

Jeff Northrop
01-26-2008, 01:35 PM
Is there a drill or something for finding the ankle lean? I'm totally unable to figure it out.

Register for the forum at posetech.com (http://forums.posetech.com/) (wfs) and the first sticky under the first sub-forum has lots of videos of different drills.

Aileen Reid
01-27-2008, 01:05 AM
There's also quite a few videos of POSE stuff just on u-tube. Just do a search.
The lean is from the ankles, not from the hips. It should be quiet. The other area where I got confused was the butt kicking drill is not what I call butt kicking.You still flex at the hip but its not becuase you're actively lifting your thigh its because you're using your hammie to get you foot up to your butt - almost. Some of the videos show it better, I think from memory some do it with your back against a wall.

And don't land on your toes, you land almost flat footed but its on the ball of your foot.And there is not ankle flexion when you come off the ground with your foot - so the calf isn't involved. You shouldn't get sore calves.

Try to relax everything, just think of lifting with your hammies and leaning forward. The angles not critical - the more you lean forward the faster you run!

The other thing is the cadence is supposed to be 90 or above. That I have most trouble with.

And if I'm barking up the wrong tree with any of this please tell me because I'm learning as well by remote control.

Aaron Shaffer
01-27-2008, 06:25 AM
I saw a video of them doing pose running in place. Then you lean forward ever so slightly (not at the hips) just enough to start moving forward. That helped me understand what they were going for.

Try doing 50/50/50/50 sit up / back extention / situp / back extension, then run 800m. Because that exhausts the core I feel even the slightest hip tilt while running after that. I end up running straight up, more POSE-like, and it feels better.

Brandon Oto
01-27-2008, 11:10 AM
And there is not ankle flexion when you come off the ground with your foot - so the calf isn't involved. You shouldn't get sore calves.

I don't buy this... the soreness comes from the eccentric, from absorbing the shock of your foot flexing on impact.

Justin Herring
01-27-2008, 11:51 AM
I don't buy this... the soreness comes from the eccentric, from absorbing the shock of your foot flexing on impact.
Everyone I know that has learned to run correctly has told me to expect serious calf soreness until your muscles adapt. And the fire in my calves right now confirms that.

Darren Zega
01-27-2008, 01:30 PM
And don't land on your toes, you land almost flat footed but its on the ball of your foot.And there is not ankle flexion when you come off the ground with your foot - so the calf isn't involved. You shouldn't get sore calves.


Sorry Aileen, I don't really buy that entirely either. You're close, though. When you're learning to POSE run, unless you take it ultra slow, you're going to have tons of soreness in your calves. The majority of us don't typically use our calf muscles during typical gait do to the shoes we wear.

Typical shoes cast the foot into a fixed position and do the stabilization work for us - the purpose of the calves – resulting in an abnormal heel-striking gait. Furthermore, since we heel strike, there is a greater emphasis placed on the hip flexor muscles to move our bodies up and over the planted leg.

Switching to pose, there is an unloading of the hips and knees and much greater stabilization demands place on the calves and ankles - which is what they are designed for but rarely used in western society. With each step there is an elastic loading of the calf and achilles tendon as it stretches. If you are not used to this, which I would guess 90% of us aren't, you will be sore like it's nobody's business while you adapt.

However, there's sore and then there's excruciating - which happens when you toe run. The elastic nature of your muscles will mean that the ankle angle will change and your heel may just barely skim the ground, but it won't bear any weight. Keeping your heel up and off the ground will eliminate a large portion of the elastic response of the muscles by holding them in a more rigid, contracted position and will leave them more sore after a run. But while learning, however, they'll still hurt.

Now, if you take an Aboriginee, Huarache, Sub-Saharan African, or traditional Okinawan, who typically wear little, if any, footwear and get them pose running, they shouldn't have any calf soreness. But from western society, where we typically never use our calves at all, any learner will likely experience lots of pain.

John Schneider
01-28-2008, 07:19 AM
I just wanted to throw out that I went to the CF running and endurance cert this weekend as a skeptic and came out a believer. It was really awesome. It is very impressive to find out how fast you can run and how easy it can feel. My calfs are killing me today from the eccentric action, but once I build that capacity, I'm going to be a Posing fool:p

Brandon Oto
01-28-2008, 07:39 AM
Yeah, my calves and arches were sore for about five days after less than 15 minutes of light, interrupted Pose jogging. This stuff is no joke and needs to be eased gradually and carefully.

John Schneider
01-28-2008, 10:08 AM
Yeah, my calves and arches were sore for about five days after less than 15 minutes of light, interrupted Pose jogging. This stuff is no joke and needs to be eased gradually and carefully.

The emphasis at the cert was to do it right, do it faster, do it longer. . .in that order. I had thought I was doing it before because I had read about it a little and I don't heal strike, but I found out I was combining pose with some bad technique that I had been conceptualizing as vital to force production in running and it was messing me up. People don't realize that running is a skill just like anything else we do and learning to do it right is important.