PDA

View Full Version : Critique - Squat and Deadlift


Jeff Mouland
01-05-2008, 08:35 PM
Second time posting with my new cam appreciate any feedback

Squat (WFS) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0LqsriN7Hw

Deadlift (WFS) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJSfQH47vJY

Chris Hitzroth
01-05-2008, 09:22 PM
Your deadlift is very good, though your hips come up a bit before the bar comes off the floor, and you do round your back a touch just before you set the bar down. Start with your hips an inch or so higher so your scapulae are over the bar, and keep your back tight until the weight's on the floor.

Your squat is well above parallel. The way you're folding in half at the bottom means it's not a flexibility problem but rather that you're focusing too much on getting your butt back and not enough on getting your hips down. I'd suggest ditching all the weight and relearning the mechanics of the movement. This isn't a bad description of how to squat correctly (wfs):
http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayarticle.php?aid=54
though Rippetoe's Starting Strength is far superior.

Ryan Whitenack
01-06-2008, 02:15 AM
If you pause the video in the 16th second you will see that you are in a knees extended and locked out position while the bar is barely at your knees. That can create some serious problems as far as injury is concerned when lifting heavy weights. In fact if you pause it in the 17th sec it looks like you might be doing an upright row. The article on shearing from the journal comes to mind when I look at your form. However, your back looks to still be in a decent position so that is good.

I would definitely recommend Coach Rip's Starting Strength. It is awesome! I didn't really think a book on lifting could teach so much, but it really has. Pick yourself up a copy and memorize it.

These are just my opinions, many in the community might argue with my critique of your form. Good work nonetheless; looked like quite a bit of weight.

Chris Hitzroth
01-06-2008, 04:08 AM
If you pause the video in the 16th second you will see that you are in a knees extended and locked out position while the bar is barely at your knees. That can create some serious problems as far as injury is concerned when lifting heavy weights. In fact if you pause it in the 17th sec it looks like you might be doing an upright row. The article on shearing from the journal comes to mind when I look at your form. However, your back looks to still be in a decent position so that is good.I'm not sure how you can see "locked out" knees in baggy pants, but I am more curious about your assertion that straightening your legs before the bar passes your knees will cause serious injury, other than the fact that pretty much anything can cause serious injury.

In any case, Jeff has long legs for his height and longer legs means a shorter torso means a more horizontal back to get the scapulae over the bar means higher hips in the starting position means straighter legs before the bar comes off the floor means his legs will likely straighten with the bar that much lower.

And straightening the legs "early" certainly isn't uncommon (all wfs). This guy does it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w8bCTuzXZM&NR
More than half the people here, including Annie, Brandon, and Eva, do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjBI9qxibTc
And this guy's oh so close, but rebends his knees after the bar passes them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zTHkWe6Vdc

What you want to look at is Jeff's back angle. Once the bar actually leaves the floor, his back angle doesn't change until his hips extend.

Though on a second viewing, I see the bar do a bit of a turn to the left at the top of the lift, so I am wondering if the bar was in contact with his legs all the way up.

Jeff Mouland
01-06-2008, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the help guys, Where can I best get the starting strength book online? I am in Canada if that matters. Also I felt my DL was the better of the two lifts for sure but definately noticed my hip and knee extension not being in unison.

Im wondering if in my squat the problem might be me not focusing on a point above me. I certainly seem too far farward

Also what do you use to watch the videos in slow motion?

Derek Heinonen
01-06-2008, 03:49 PM
You can purchase Starting Strength here:

http://www.aasgaardco.com/store/store.php

Ryan Whitenack
01-06-2008, 05:09 PM
Chis H.

In response to the videos you posted I will point out that in 2 of the videos the participants are doing lighter weights (for them at least) and for multiple reps. That inevitably changes the form, though it should not. On a max lift dead, which I presume is what Jeff's video was of, you really want to focus on having all the minute tasks of the body right, though it is harder.

I will also point out where the bar is when all of them straighten out there legs (yes I know it is hard to see in pants, but it is like congress' decision on when pornogrpahy is not art--I just know when I see it :) ) . All of the videos you posted, except for Annie's excerpt, have the athletes locking out the knees with the load above the knee caps and on the thighs. In Jeff's video when his knees lock his hands--to me at least--look to be below his knee caps still. This is all the more a potent danger when you consider that he has long legs, as you say. However, his back position does not seem to suffer all that much which could mean that he could complete the lift with a decreased degree of danger. Excellent back position that I wish I could maintain.

Compare his video to the progession of pictures in coach Rip's Starting Strength on p.122, and then look at p. 125 and figure 29 seems to be a direct explanation of why you don't want to raise your hips, ie lock out your knees, prematurely.

I also noticed but did not comment that I think the bar was not in contact for a considerable distance of the path.

Honestly, I guess I am just looking at it from the 16th second on and I am thinking that he is essentially doing a 315#(???) upright row. That would be excessive on any non-professional strongman's back.

Thanks for getting me thinking. I am by no means a master, and I see flaws in what I say too. These lifts will be a work in progress for me to understand thoroughly. However, if I was coaching a young athlete what I said probably would not change.

Jeff Mouland
01-06-2008, 05:58 PM
Chis H.

In response to the videos you posted I will point out that in 2 of the videos the participants are doing lighter weights (for them at least) and for multiple reps. That inevitably changes the form, though it should not. On a max lift dead, which I presume is what Jeff's video was of, you really want to focus on having all the minute tasks of the body right, though it is harder.

I will also point out where the bar is when all of them straighten out there legs (yes I know it is hard to see in pants, but it is like congress' decision on when pornogrpahy is not art--I just know when I see it :) ) . All of the videos you posted, except for Annie's excerpt, have the athletes locking out the knees with the load above the knee caps and on the thighs. In Jeff's video when his knees lock his hands--to me at least--look to be below his knee caps still. This is all the more a potent danger when you consider that he has long legs, as you say. However, his back position does not seem to suffer all that much which could mean that he could complete the lift with a decreased degree of danger. Excellent back position that I wish I could maintain.

Compare his video to the progession of pictures in coach Rip's Starting Strength on p.122, and then look at p. 125 and figure 29 seems to be a direct explanation of why you don't want to raise your hips, ie lock out your knees, prematurely.

I also noticed but did not comment that I think the bar was not in contact for a considerable distance of the path.

Honestly, I guess I am just looking at it from the 16th second on and I am thinking that he is essentially doing a 315#(???) upright row. That would be excessive on any non-professional strongman's back.

Thanks for getting me thinking. I am by no means a master, and I see flaws in what I say too. These lifts will be a work in progress for me to understand thoroughly. However, if I was coaching a young athlete what I said probably would not change.

Is was 315, so what should I focus on? Lifting witht he hips first? Keeping the bar along my legs?

Jason Lollar
01-07-2008, 05:09 PM
Jeff,

First, I'm sorry you have to lift while listening to that crap-for-music.

My squat was completely rocked by “Starting Strength” so get that book first! Ok, here are a few things in my own words and taken from my own experience so I apologize in advance if I offer any bad poop. Hopefully you will get a few of the more experienced coaches to offer their insight. Anyway, I’ll focus on the squat.

This is too much weight. You are strong enough to lift it and more, but not until you get correct, full-depth squat technique. Start out without any weight at all and find the “bottom”. Then use your elbows and push your knees out. Feel the stretch and point your toes out more if you need to find that comfortable, balanced feel. Ok, take a look at your video. Notice that just as you begin to squat you quiver back and forth. You are lacking in core tension. Fill your lungs with air and then catch it with a closed glottis (like you’re saying the word ‘HOOK’ and hold the ‘K’). Your back and abs should be locked tight, your chest should be high with a good back arch. You can guarantee good tension by holding the bar correctly. The bar should rest just under the “bone” at the top of your shoulder blades and your hands should be narrow, creating tightness in the upper back muscles. Position your thumbs on top of the bar, not around it, and secure the bar in place by lifting the elbows and the chest at the same time.

Your chin is a little high. Drop your head a little. Pretend you are holding a tennis ball under your chin. This enables good hip drive and by focusing on a fixed position (not yourself in the mirror) you can quickly ID deviations. Unfortunately you have those horrible mirrors in your gym. These only offer negative training as you cannot ID depth. Your eyes should focus on the floor about 6ft away. It looks like you are about that far from the wall, so just focus on the corner of the wall and floor.

Now squat and never accept anything less than full depth from now on. It’s the bottom of the squat that recruits the glutes and hams, promoting a powerful hip drive. Not too mention the tension in your hams balances the muscles and tendons against your quads. Full depth squats protect the knees.

Think about exploding up even on your way down. Hold good tension in anticipation of the drive. Focus on keeping your chest high and on the drive imagine a hand on your tailbone pushing straight down. Push that hand straight up. Start each workout with an empty bar.

Hope this helps. Get Rip’s book. :stir:

Best,
wilson

Jeff Mouland
01-08-2008, 06:44 AM
Jeff,

First, I'm sorry you have to lift while listening to that crap-for-music.

My squat was completely rocked by “Starting Strength” so get that book first! Ok, here are a few things in my own words and taken from my own experience so I apologize in advance if I offer any bad poop. Hopefully you will get a few of the more experienced coaches to offer their insight. Anyway, I’ll focus on the squat.

This is too much weight. You are strong enough to lift it and more, but not until you get correct, full-depth squat technique. Start out without any weight at all and find the “bottom”. Then use your elbows and push your knees out. Feel the stretch and point your toes out more if you need to find that comfortable, balanced feel. Ok, take a look at your video. Notice that just as you begin to squat you quiver back and forth. You are lacking in core tension. Fill your lungs with air and then catch it with a closed glottis (like you’re saying the word ‘HOOK’ and hold the ‘K’). Your back and abs should be locked tight, your chest should be high with a good back arch. You can guarantee good tension by holding the bar correctly. The bar should rest just under the “bone” at the top of your shoulder blades and your hands should be narrow, creating tightness in the upper back muscles. Position your thumbs on top of the bar, not around it, and secure the bar in place by lifting the elbows and the chest at the same time.

Your chin is a little high. Drop your head a little. Pretend you are holding a tennis ball under your chin. This enables good hip drive and by focusing on a fixed position (not yourself in the mirror) you can quickly ID deviations. Unfortunately you have those horrible mirrors in your gym. These only offer negative training as you cannot ID depth. Your eyes should focus on the floor about 6ft away. It looks like you are about that far from the wall, so just focus on the corner of the wall and floor.

Now squat and never accept anything less than full depth from now on. It’s the bottom of the squat that recruits the glutes and hams, promoting a powerful hip drive. Not too mention the tension in your hams balances the muscles and tendons against your quads. Full depth squats protect the knees.

Think about exploding up even on your way down. Hold good tension in anticipation of the drive. Focus on keeping your chest high and on the drive imagine a hand on your tailbone pushing straight down. Push that hand straight up. Start each workout with an empty bar.

Hope this helps. Get Rip’s book. :stir:

Best,
wilson

Holy Crap this is AWESOME thank you so much for this critique and to all the guys who helped with my dead. Here is some feedback on my feedback

1. Thank you for empathizing with the background music, using this big box gym is killing me but I really have no other choice, I just try and focus my rage into the workout:)
2. I have purchased SS and am just waiting for it to arrive, thanks to everyone for the recommendation
3. Lately I have been trying to bring my feet closer together during my squat, I felt my wide stance although definitely stronger was necessitated by poor flexibility on my part. I will widen my stance next time for sure.
4. As for @ss2Grass squats, I always do these when I am doing greater than one rep max. But for the CFT I went with the below parallel, I should be getting down more for sure
5. Excellent tip on the breathing and grip, I noticed my midline wobble as well so I will focus on that more.

Jason Lollar
01-08-2008, 10:16 AM
No worries Jeff,

Just be careful not to take a wide stance just for "taking a wide stance" sake. Your heels should only be shoulder width. The common mistake is toes pointing straight ahead forcing you to isolate your quads. Then as you bend forward at the waist to keep the bar balanced over your feet your functional strength is weakened. For me, a good low-bar squat feels like I'm forcing my knees wide which allows my torso more room to get lower. My butt is stuck out enough to balance the forward lean. But by recruiting my glutes/hams/adductors I have much more power coming out of the hole. And don't go a@@ to grass just to show "how low can you go". The point is to go to the natural bottom where your posterior chain is fully stretched/engaged. This will look different for every athlete. When you get it down you will do your CFT squats this way because you generate the most power at the bottom. Think about stopping a kettlebell swing halfway down. Ouch! Difficult and dangerous. You gotta hit the bottom to keep everything balanced and powerful.

wORD,
wilson