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View Full Version : A little help on clean and jerks (Greg Everett and Coach B.)


Dale F. Saran
12-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Here are 5 w/f/s links to me doing some Clean and jerk triples. All critiques welcomed. They're taken from different angles, going clockwise as I increased the weights for a set of 5 triples.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwj1HNbLnJU
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY_HoL0EE_s
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfUZQwAb1w
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLxOiu4EXSI
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XMwcD2lKxs


Coach B - if these are hideous, you can pretend that you never saw me and that I never set foot in your gym. :yikes: Hope everyone is well. please say Merry Christmas to Sagey, Cody, Mrs. B, and the rest of the clan.

Greg - if you read this, nice snatch at 122. That's an awesome lift. My best to Aimee, as well. (I like the CA t-shirts "I know Aimee Anaya" - I may have to buy one before my next trip out that way.) :rolleyes:

Oh, also, I forgot my weightlifting shoes and had to use the sneaker marshmallows. Not sure if that's why I fell back on the second one of number 5 or not.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-22-2007, 10:12 PM
Dale,
You're light years ahead of me. Just so you know.

I know I'm one to talk, but the only thing that I can comment on is you don't seem to be getting full extension on your 2nd pull.

I can't comment on the jerks as I haven't gotten that far in my own development.

Good work.

All the best,
Arden

Brandon Oto
12-23-2007, 02:19 AM
He's right.

You know that your pulling position is higher than your set position?

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-23-2007, 08:52 AM
Brandon what is
1) pulling position

vs.

2) set position

I'm trying to understand your comment and how one being higher than another can equate to not getting second extension.

All the best,
ARden

Brandon Oto
12-23-2007, 09:04 AM
Those were unrelated comments :P

Your set position is where you set up -- where most people think they're starting from. Your pulling position is where you actually put pressure on the bar and start pulling it off the ground.

Think I got those terms from Rip.

Dale's settling into a nice deadlift stance, then popping his hips up and back down, then pulling -- and when he starts to pull he's a little higher than his static stance was. No big deal if he knows about it, just wasn't sure if he did.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-23-2007, 10:05 AM
Those were unrelated comments :P

Your set position is where you set up -- where most people think they're starting from. Your pulling position is where you actually put pressure on the bar and start pulling it off the ground.

Think I got those terms from Rip.

Dale's settling into a nice deadlift stance, then popping his hips up and back down, then pulling -- and when he starts to pull he's a little higher than his static stance was. No big deal if he knows about it, just wasn't sure if he did.

gotcha. Makes sense. Thanks.

All the best,
Arden

Ryan Whitenack
12-23-2007, 02:18 PM
This isn't me telling, but more asking...On the last video I was looking at the bar in relation to the body. Does the bar have to travel closer up the path of the body or is that position just fine?

Your feet do what mine do, and I have been told it is wrong and have tried to fix it, but it is just so natural. I point my feet out, and I'm pretty sure it is to compensate for a lack of hamstring flexibility when catching the bar in the squat. What can you say to that--is it okay if it's natural??

I am really in no seat to give great advice, so...I'll stay out

Dale, where is that gym? It looks really cool.

Lincoln Brigham
12-23-2007, 03:14 PM
Looking good Dale.

You could pick less functional shoes for the job at hand. Maybe swim fins? Wooden cloggers? Seriously, running shoes don't cut it. Boots would be a better choice if you don't want to spend a dime 'cause I know you own a pair. You're getting good enough as a weightlifter that you should treat yourself to a pair of decent shoes.

Speaking of which, you shift your weight on to your toes as you recover from the clean. Keep the center of gravity on the heels of those soft, gushy, gel-padded running shoes of yours and off the rocker toes of those horrid marathon runners shoes. Did I mention you should wear more appropriate shoes?

On the Jerk: it's tough to jerk from the fingertips. Drop the elbows a tad, grab a little more bar. On one of the vids you almost did that but then went back to a fingertip grip. On the recovery, step only halfway back with the front foot not 3/4 back. In other words, stay centered under the bar and don't make it move any more than necessary.

Hope to see you out to my neck of the woods again soon.
Linc

Guest
12-23-2007, 06:39 PM
Thanks RE snatch. Had I not fumbled 120 for no good reason, I would have gone to 125. Now:

Your clean (generalized based on the sum of all attempts)

1. Good starting position when you're preparing - don't blow it with that jerky dynamic start. If you're going to expend the energy setting and holding such a good position, you should just pull from it. Setting and then getting that bounce may encourage a little more accuracy than a dynamic start without the initial set (like touching the nail with the hammer before you swing), but it still opens you up to a lot of opportunity for a ****ty pull from the floor.

2. In the same vein, don't rip the bar off the floor. That initial separation should be very smooth--think of generating tension in the start gradually until the bar breaks off, then accelerating instead of trying to fire it like a cannon. Same reason as #1 - more opportunity to shift from a good position to a poor one.

3. The moment the bar leaves the platform, you let it escape. The greater the distance between the bar and you, the greater the mechanical disadvantage. Don't make it so hard on yourself. As, if not more, important, that distance will shift your weight forward on your feet where we don't want it.

4. That distance increases after the bar passes your knees because you don't bring it back in. In the ideal world, that bar remains a fraction of a millimeter off of your legs the entire time. In the real world, light contact with the thighs is MUCH preferable to any distance. Any resulting friction will have nowhere near as great of a negative influence on the lift as the mechanical disadvantage and shift on the base arising from distance. Basically the bar travels straight up from the knees - huge gap between it and you.

5. #4 leads to the upright rowing posture you see at the peak of your second pull - this is a very weak position and will never allow you to capitalize on all the strength you have. At the point of your greatest extension, you'll notice your hips are short of full extension and your torso is still inclined forward (with the bar about 3 counties in front of you). We need to get that hip opened fully, and the torso leaning back slightly - shoulders behind the hips. In that position, the arms should be extended fully, basically stretched like rubber bands, and the bar touching you. Think of stretching your shoulders away from the bar. THIS is what will maximize the transmission of power to the bar as well as keep the system balanced over the base.

6. This is what leads to your jumping forward, however slight it may be. The balance of the system is forward, and to receive the bar, you have to pull yourself forward to reposition your base. See #5.

7. #5 leads to premature arm bend - because you finish the 2nd pull early by not fully extending, you have to compensate and try to pull the bar up with the arms. See #5.

8. Great turn over of the elbows - nice and quick, and pretty accurate delivery of the bar to the shoulders. Not much to complain about here, but always keep working on meeting the bar as smoothly as possible.

9. Weight is still a little forward on the feet when you receive due to all the previous. As that weight gets heavier, your attempts to muscle it back into balance will be less and less effective. The more accurate this is, the easier your recovery will be.

10. That notwithdstanding, good recoveries - Torso stays upright, elbows stay high.

Back for the jerks in a bit.

Guest
12-23-2007, 09:05 PM
Jerk -

1. Rack position changes with each jerk. Pick one and stick with it. Preferably a good one. You basically had 2 variations - one in which the bar was deeper in your hands and your elbows were lower, and one in which the bar was on your fingers and your elbows were higher. The first is what you want in terms of the hands and elbows, but the second is what you want in terms of the bar's position on the shoulders. In other words, from the clean rack, sink the hands in and drop the elbows as low as possible WITHOUT pulling the shoulders back out from under the bar. It still has to be supported on the shoulders - the collarbone doesn't count.

2. You dip is not horrible, but you're getting some forward sliding in the transition at the bottom. Try slowing down the descent slightly at the top and accelerating down, but keep the speed within reason. Too fast, and you won't be able to make the transition as fast or as solid as it needs to be - you'll get that jerking/bouncing/sliding effect, which, particularly with heavier weights, will throw off the balance on the feet, the structure of the torso, and the path of the bar.

3. You actually get the bar TOO far back on most attempts. Remember that we want the bar traveling straight up - you have to drive yourself forward to get it into position overhead. With the light weights, you're able to manipulate the bar easily, but with +bodyweight loads and your feet not in contact with the platform, the attempt to move the weight back will actually be moving you forward. Get used to it, and make it happen even with the lighter weights.

4. Footwork is inconsistent, but that happens. Generally you know where you're supposed to be getting your feet - once the bar is moving straight up every time, your balance and positioning when you receive will improve.

All in all, nice work.

Jay Cohen
12-24-2007, 03:03 AM
Greg;
Very informative reply. Comments will help my lifting.
Thanks.
Jay

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-24-2007, 09:30 AM
Wow....just wow. I'm impressed with this analysis. Unreal. You, my friend, are the man. So awesome you took the time too.

All the best,
Arden

Thanks RE snatch. Had I not fumbled 120 for no good reason, I would have gone to 125. Now:

Your clean (generalized based on the sum of all attempts)

1. Good starting position when you're preparing - don't blow it with that jerky dynamic start. If you're going to expend the energy setting and holding such a good position, you should just pull from it. Setting and then getting that bounce may encourage a little more accuracy than a dynamic start without the initial set (like touching the nail with the hammer before you swing), but it still opens you up to a lot of opportunity for a ****ty pull from the floor.

2. In the same vein, don't rip the bar off the floor. That initial separation should be very smooth--think of generating tension in the start gradually until the bar breaks off, then accelerating instead of trying to fire it like a cannon. Same reason as #1 - more opportunity to shift from a good position to a poor one.

3. The moment the bar leaves the platform, you let it escape. The greater the distance between the bar and you, the greater the mechanical disadvantage. Don't make it so hard on yourself. As, if not more, important, that distance will shift your weight forward on your feet where we don't want it.

4. That distance increases after the bar passes your knees because you don't bring it back in. In the ideal world, that bar remains a fraction of a millimeter off of your legs the entire time. In the real world, light contact with the thighs is MUCH preferable to any distance. Any resulting friction will have nowhere near as great of a negative influence on the lift as the mechanical disadvantage and shift on the base arising from distance. Basically the bar travels straight up from the knees - huge gap between it and you.

5. #4 leads to the upright rowing posture you see at the peak of your second pull - this is a very weak position and will never allow you to capitalize on all the strength you have. At the point of your greatest extension, you'll notice your hips are short of full extension and your torso is still inclined forward (with the bar about 3 counties in front of you). We need to get that hip opened fully, and the torso leaning back slightly - shoulders behind the hips. In that position, the arms should be extended fully, basically stretched like rubber bands, and the bar touching you. Think of stretching your shoulders away from the bar. THIS is what will maximize the transmission of power to the bar as well as keep the system balanced over the base.

6. This is what leads to your jumping forward, however slight it may be. The balance of the system is forward, and to receive the bar, you have to pull yourself forward to reposition your base. See #5.

7. #5 leads to premature arm bend - because you finish the 2nd pull early by not fully extending, you have to compensate and try to pull the bar up with the arms. See #5.

8. Great turn over of the elbows - nice and quick, and pretty accurate delivery of the bar to the shoulders. Not much to complain about here, but always keep working on meeting the bar as smoothly as possible.

9. Weight is still a little forward on the feet when you receive due to all the previous. As that weight gets heavier, your attempts to muscle it back into balance will be less and less effective. The more accurate this is, the easier your recovery will be.

10. That notwithdstanding, good recoveries - Torso stays upright, elbows stay high.

Back for the jerks in a bit.

Arden Cogar Jr.
12-24-2007, 09:32 AM
Again, excellent analysis. I can't wait to start jerking myself and hopefully, someday, get some of your input. Unreal. Thanks again, for Dale (and the rest of us tangentully), for taking the time.

All the best,
Arden
Jerk -

1. Rack position changes with each jerk. Pick one and stick with it. Preferably a good one. You basically had 2 variations - one in which the bar was deeper in your hands and your elbows were lower, and one in which the bar was on your fingers and your elbows were higher. The first is what you want in terms of the hands and elbows, but the second is what you want in terms of the bar's position on the shoulders. In other words, from the clean rack, sink the hands in and drop the elbows as low as possible WITHOUT pulling the shoulders back out from under the bar. It still has to be supported on the shoulders - the collarbone doesn't count.

2. You dip is not horrible, but you're getting some forward sliding in the transition at the bottom. Try slowing down the descent slightly at the top and accelerating down, but keep the speed within reason. Too fast, and you won't be able to make the transition as fast or as solid as it needs to be - you'll get that jerking/bouncing/sliding effect, which, particularly with heavier weights, will throw off the balance on the feet, the structure of the torso, and the path of the bar.

3. You actually get the bar TOO far back on most attempts. Remember that we want the bar traveling straight up - you have to drive yourself forward to get it into position overhead. With the light weights, you're able to manipulate the bar easily, but with +bodyweight loads and your feet not in contact with the platform, the attempt to move the weight back will actually be moving you forward. Get used to it, and make it happen even with the lighter weights.

4. Footwork is inconsistent, but that happens. Generally you know where you're supposed to be getting your feet - once the bar is moving straight up every time, your balance and positioning when you receive will improve.

All in all, nice work.

Anthony Militello
12-24-2007, 10:44 AM
Greg...

Your posts are such solid readings. I wanted to know if you mind me printing them and putting them as some guidlines for some of the younger High School athletes I work with.

Wouldn't wanna ripp off any one's work. I just see your guides as valuable readings.

Dale F. Saran
12-24-2007, 09:37 PM
Greg:

Thanks for taking the time, brother, I know you're plenty busy. Happy Holidays. I'll stop bouncing on the setup - no need for that crap - never would have gotten away with that at Mike's Gym. I'll get in there later this week and concentrate on dragging it up the front. Chalk marks on the shorts and shirt. I noticed when watching the video that I had that same "upright row" look, but I thought it must be the camera angle (clearly couldn't be me) because I couldn't quite figure out what I was seeing. It also helps explain why 80 kilos felt so damn heavy when my max power clean is like 110 - I was puzzled that day and just chalked it up to fatigue, rather than bad technique. That weight gets out away and suddenly it's ALL pull, and a lot less jump.

Lincoln - yes, yes, no more marshmallows. You are correct and I'm looking forward to coming back out that way again to try and drop in to Eastside. Mike and Carrie have a great crew there and a really fun atmosphere.

Back to the drawing board - I'll try to get some video of better cleans up by next week. Thanks again and Merry Christmas!

Oh, and for the guy who asked, that's the Naval Academy Prep School gym in Newport, RI, on the base (NETC). The football team and other sports teams use it, but only in the late afternoons after classes. That's an Eleiko bar (one of 6 on 6 platforms) with bumpers at every platform. The rest of the room is pretty amazing, too. Open 24 hrs. Nice fringe of being in the military (even as a Reservist). Since I used to be on staff at the Naval Justice school and started going there, I've become a fixture and no one bothers me. The coach is a nice guy and I oblige by staying out of his way when he needs the gym for his athletes.

Guest
12-27-2007, 07:39 PM
Arden - I was intending to comment on the video you posted recently, but I slacked, especially after seeing how many lifts were in the one video.

Anthony - Go ahead.

Tom Brose
01-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Greg, thanks from all of us for such detailed responses. Very helpful.

Dale, there is no way I am going to add anything to that, except maybe relax a little. It looks like you are really amped up, stay patient and focused.

Keep up the good work.

Arden Cogar Jr.
01-03-2008, 07:15 PM
Arden - I was intending to comment on the video you posted recently, but I slacked, especially after seeing how many lifts were in the one video.

Anthony - Go ahead.


Greg,
I'll make you a deal. I swear I'll only post one video tomorrow so you can comment on it. I would love your advice.

Sorry for pirating the thread, but I can't avoid a chance to get some advice on something I know very little about.

All the best,
Arden

Anthony Bainbridge
01-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Awesome read, Greg! I can definitely put some of that to use in my own training, so it's greatly appreciated.